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Right, and we haven't spent entire threads arguing about your Absolute Morality as proof of God.
You may have done that . . . but I certainly haven't. Trying to prove God is a futile endeavor doomed to failure.
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Nice to know you know God so well to. When did he explain these things, during a lunch meeting?
I first met Him over 30 years ago. I was a practicing atheist mediatator seeking Nirvana. Bigeest shock of my life. We have had ongoing contact ever since in deep meditation. Unfortunately . . . it is all non-verbal. But the absence of ANY negative human emotions and the presence of an unconditional love and acceptance is unambiguous and unmistakable.
Yes, I confess that you are most likely more familiar with the methods and tools of science than I am. But could it be you who is out of your league when it comes to spiritual things, which are the things I tend to write about?
Since the only "evidence" for spiritual matters is subjective opinion, how can anyone be more skilled than anyone else in the area?
But if there are various levels of skill at understanding the spirit world, that kind of shoots your "lots of people believe in god so he exists" out of the water. If your idea is true, it doesn't matter how many people believe but rather the level of spiritual understanding they have.
Unless "they agree with me" is the yardstick for measuring spiritual ability, of course...
You say, god inspired as opposed to inerrant, that friend is merely semantics or synonyms of each other.
On the contrary . . . inspiration comes non-verbally and is subject to the knowledge, concepts and cognitive skills of the receiver to translate into verbal form. The receiver is limited by the available cognitive constructs and concepts in his brain.
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It amazes me that when science makes a mistake, the theists are all over it and say there see yet science will correct its mistakes but the inverse is true for the bible. With all its errors they leave it as is and refer to extra biblical materials to explain away the errors.The most interesting aspect of all this is that in so many pages, no one has offered any proof of creationism but all we have had hare are a few that had a "preach attack".
We sit back and merely smile.
The single most consistent complaint against theism seems to be that so many of the religious seem ignorant and immune to science, etc. or are just plain pushy and obnoxious with their preaching and self-righteousness. I would simply point out that God is not defined by the foibles and fallibilities of ANY of His followers or believers.
Secular and spiritual methods of discovery are both valid.
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Originally Posted by rifleman
....I had examined the spiritual side of many arguments and discussions among my various arts degree friends. I found it lacking in that it required too much faith in someone else doing your thinking for you. If things were too hard to "figure", or there wasn't an immediate solution, then it was "spiritual", which defaulted to a God or "The Gods" in many cases. I saw it as a cop-out, a refusal to take on the harder effort of finding out what was really going on.
By that time, I was fast en-route out of blindered Christianity. I and other atheists are today free to think and question and advance our knowledge endlessly throughout our entire lives. You have apparently not yet made that important transition.
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8: 32
You apparently abandoned your faith and found freedom in atheism. Others might abandon atheism and find freedom in religion. Neither is more or less free, most people limit themselves. Many Christians for example tend to stick to denominational doctrines, most atheists to a specific secular method of discovery. But regardless of preferred methods and tools, I think all of us are searching for TRUTH.
"And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;" D&C 93: 24
Both atheists and Christians can of course put too much faith in others to do their thinking for them. In their search for truth, Christians could put too much faith in scholars and church leaders, and atheists in scientists. Christians quite possibly have the advantage because many if not most Christians in the western world probably accept both science and religion as valid ways to seek and discover truths. Atheists tend to stick to secular science exclusively, putting their trust in what Christians familiar with the Bible would call the "arm of flesh." Personally I think both science and religion have their place, both are of great value, each can lead to the discovery of new truths.
That "arm of flesh" learning continues to sometimes be viewed as a distraction, especially if one turns exclusively to it and ignores or denies the spiritual method of discovery, the path that is most likely to lead to a personal relationship with God. That path becomes all important if one dies and becomes aware that consciousness continues and, as religious people have been saying all along there really is a God. (They can say that with sincerity, even certainty, because they consider spiritual methods of discovery to be just as valid as secular methods.)
"Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost." 2 Nephi 28: 31
People can run to and fro over the whole earth "endlessly throughout our entire lives" as you put it, and never find that which is satisfying. Others who look to God can find that which fills the entire body and soul, knowledge/truth impressed upon us by God's Holy Spirit. God is seldom found when one limits oneself to secular methods and tools of discovery.
"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." Amos 8: 11-12
Why shall they not find it? Could it be because they are looking in the wrong places: wrong methods, wrong tools...
Is it possible that those who believe in God and the infinite Atonement of His son Jesus Christ will be free to seek knowledge not just until death do you part, but FOREVER, as God invites ALL His children to prepare during this brief earthly experience to do?
Last edited by justamere10; 10-01-2009 at 10:29 AM..
You do know that most atheists and agnostics tune out the religious when they start preaching, especially if scripture from a book they don't believe anyway is thrown in...Just a heads up if you actually have something to say to us.
I was going to stay out of this discussion . . . but I cannot count the times I have heard this very complaint from frustrated atheists/agnostics.
First off, I'm not frustrated about anything. I just think it doesn't make any sense.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The problem lies in thinking that belief is the desired objective instead of one of the motivators to achieve the desired objective. We want our children to believe in us and that we love them and have their best interests at heart . . . so they will listen to us and learn the self-control and judgment to be responsible adults. It is no different for us as spiritual children.
So basically, without your Bible, then we'd have no self-control, judgement or responsibility? This argument has been debunked countless times.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The goal is NOT the belief . . . it is the self-control and judgment to be responsible spiritual adults. Our children have to become self-reliant . . . not obedient robots. So do we.
That's your interpretation. And, as you know different sects (and sects within sects) of Christianity interpret the bible in completely different ways.
Until you guys can all come together and get one clear consensus on what your book means (and stick by it), please, don't hand me down your own interpretation of it.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
If it were absolutely unambiguous and irrefutable that God exists and wants X,Y,Z. etc. . . . we would simply obey and not develop our own motivations and judgment.
That's not true at all.
Example.
I know my parents exist and I know what they expect of me, what they want me to do, etc. But, I have developed my own judgement, morality, and motivations seperate from them. I know they are there, but that doesn't mean I obey them 100% of the time.
Knowing that a God exist does not equal strict obedience.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
We would not have to figure things out for ourselves and come to the right decisions on our own . . . we would not be self-reliant . . . and would remain robot obeyers.
Again, just because we'd know God exist doesn't mean any of what you mentioned. People who believe God exist still do this. They don't try to figure anything out, they don't try to come to decisions on their own (let the bible decide!) and they are not self-reliant. If asked a question relating to the universe or whatever, it's "Goddunit," and if asked about their view on something they go straight to the bible.
You're making half-assed assumptions that don't even make logical sense. Even if we knew beyond a doubt that your God existed, you'd still have people like you described and you'd still have people who figure things out on there on, make their own decisions, and are self-reliant. It's a people thing, not a knowing if God exist thing.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
IF that were what God wanted . . . we would already have been made that way . . .without all this free will, confusion and nonsense. God wants self-directed mature adults being responsible because that is what WE want to be.
Again, that's your interpretation. And until you all can come together on what God really wants, then I'll dismiss your claims as to what God wants as I'll dismiss anyone elses claim.
Additionally, it's not so much of having all the answers, as it is proof. I can think of numerous ways (If I were God) that I can let my creation know that "Hey, I acutally do exist," and still have them ponder all the big questions. How can I (just a mere human) think of a scenario that shows God exist yet still doesn't answer all the questions? Is my human intellect greater than that of God?
You do know that most atheists and agnostics tune out the religious when they start preaching, especially if scripture from a book they don't believe anyway is thrown in...Just a heads up if you actually have something to say to us.
Anyone of course can choose to ignore my posts. But it is my opinion that quoting scripture is entirely appropriate for a discussion in a religion forum. Did you expect me to quote from science textbooks?
If you weren't so frightened of quotes from ancient books that don't support godlessness you might find that my posts contain some useful information even for those who deny their Heavenly Parent.
But then, look at my lousy reputation on this board after so many posts and maybe I'm just deceiving myself.
But then, look at my lousy reputation on this board after so many posts and maybe I'm just deceiving myself.
Actually you are one of the more reasonable and believe me if a fundie wants to slam your faith, I will stand beside you and marshal arms with you to defend your faith.
I still think you adhere to delusions but at least you are respectful of us "heathen"
Actually you are one of the more reasonable and believe me if a fundie wants to slam your faith, I will stand beside you and marshal arms with you to defend your faith.
I still think you adhere to delusions but at least you are respectful of us "heathen"
Just to prove my point I have repped you.
Much appreciated.
Interestingly, one of my relatives is an ordained minister with a small Christian denomination. He calls my wife and I "heathen" because we don't believe exactly as he does. Of course during his course of studies to become a minister of religion he learned 'all about' Mormons, from everyone except the Mormons themselves. If I believed what he thinks is true about Mormons I might consider myself a heathen too.
But I don't think I've ever heard anyone referred to as "heathen" by a Latter-day Saint. It's just not something we do, preferring instead of putting down and negatively labelling others to teach our own beliefs, then let investigators ask of God and decide for themselves if being LDS is for them or not.
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Secular and spiritual methods of discovery are both valid.
