Spinoff thread: Bad things, good people and all that (quote, divorce, faith)
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Okay, this is a spinoff of triton1's thread about bad stuff and good people and all that.
I thought one of his comments warranted a thread of its own. He commented that we're subjected to suffering because of Original Sin.
I have some questions about that.
1. If we're *all* supposed to suffer for Adam and Eve's sin, then why do some of us receive such an unbelievable amount of suffering, and others comparatively little? I'm not talking about people's perceptions of "suffering"--I might stub my toe and cry for a month and you might stub your toe and say, "Well, no biggie." I'm talking about serious suffering. You might have one person who has a childhood with the standard illnesses, one or two bullies on the schoolyard and perhaps his "big" suffering in his recollection is a parent's divorce. So...he suffered. But then you might have a little girl who is molested repeatedly, had legs broken by a trusted adult for being "bad," been the product of not one but multiple divorces, and then she turns 18 and is just about to get out of her situation but, say, learns she has cancer. Why is *she* suffering so much more for the sins of two people presumably thousands of years ago, but not the boy mentioned in this paragraph...if we are *all* paying for Adam and Eve's sin?
2. That brings me to my second question: children. Some people say we suffer because we have free will and as such, do stupid things and make mistakes. That's fine...if we're suffering for *our own* missteps. What about children who are subjected to suffering at the hands of another? Often for years? That's being subjected to someone *else's* missteps--and it sure isn't the child's free will.
3. I don't remember what my Question Number Three is. I should stop talking so much and using run-on sentences because I end up forgetting my original points. Oh wait! I do remember. Some people have said we suffer because that makes us keep testing our faith. So why would some people (see the scenarios above) be tested over and over and in totally brutal ways? What makes them more "needing" of testing...especially, again, when you're talking about children? How could a five-year-old who just wants to be able to go to sleep at night without having to worry that this is One of the Nights When Daddy Comes In "need" her faith tested? She hasn't even developed faith yet. In fact, in that case, it's likely that she has no faith at all--or at the very least, feels God must not love her.
4. Why would God allow such intense suffering of children that would automatically make it about a thousand times harder for them to "believe," then crack down on them for "not believing"? Meanwhile, loving and accepting into heaven the person who did grow up with upstanding gentle parents and a good situation...who pretty much automatically has no reason to wonder that there might not be a God? Is that fair?
Okay, this is a spinoff of triton1's thread about bad stuff and good people and all that.
I thought one of his comments warranted a thread of its own. He commented that we're subjected to suffering because of Original Sin.
I have some questions about that.
1. If we're *all* supposed to suffer for Adam and Eve's sin, then why do some of us receive such an unbelievable amount of suffering, and others comparatively little? I'm not talking about people's perceptions of "suffering"--I might stub my toe and cry for a month and you might stub your toe and say, "Well, no biggie." I'm talking about serious suffering. You might have one person who has a childhood with the standard illnesses, one or two bullies on the schoolyard and perhaps his "big" suffering in his recollection is a parent's divorce. So...he suffered. But then you might have a little girl who is molested repeatedly, had legs broken by a trusted adult for being "bad," been the product of not one but multiple divorces, and then she turns 18 and is just about to get out of her situation but, say, learns she has cancer. Why is *she* suffering so much more for the sins of two people presumably thousands of years ago, but not the boy mentioned in this paragraph...if we are *all* paying for Adam and Eve's sin?
2. That brings me to my second question: children. Some people say we suffer because we have free will and as such, do stupid things and make mistakes. That's fine...if we're suffering for *our own* missteps. What about children who are subjected to suffering at the hands of another? Often for years? That's being subjected to someone *else's* missteps--and it sure isn't the child's free will.
3. I don't remember what my Question Number Three is. I should stop talking so much and using run-on sentences because I end up forgetting my original points. Oh wait! I do remember. Some people have said we suffer because that makes us keep testing our faith. So why would some people (see the scenarios above) be tested over and over and in totally brutal ways? What makes them more "needing" of testing...especially, again, when you're talking about children? How could a five-year-old who just wants to be able to go to sleep at night without having to worry that this is One of the Nights When Daddy Comes In "need" her faith tested? She hasn't even developed faith yet. In fact, in that case, it's likely that she has no faith at all--or at the very least, feels God must not love her.
4. Why would God allow such intense suffering of children that would automatically make it about a thousand times harder for them to "believe," then crack down on them for "not believing"? Meanwhile, loving and accepting into heaven the person who did grow up with upstanding gentle parents and a good situation...who pretty much automatically has no reason to wonder that there might not be a God? Is that fair?
Okay...any input would be interesting.
Boy you sure do come up with some difficult questions Jerz.
I think everyone has thought about these questions and the bottom line is noone knows. Except IMO God and that is just something we have to have faith in. And no I don't believe it's just blind faith there are just some things on this earth NOONE will understand.
I don't know why suffering is necessary but I do believe some people need to pass through certain trials and tribulations to learn. Now I'm not saying I think anyone needs to suffer or molested or beaten. Much of human suffering is inflicted by other humans and I believe we are all given free agency. So without going off topic I belive it ties into that. God will not control anyone. And then you say well how is he a loving God then if he allows this? Well I think it goes back to giving us the gift of free agency. I don't think He would be God or be less than He is if he didn't afford us that. (if that makes any sense?)
I've said many times before spiritual intelligence is not the same as the world and will never be. There are just some things that will NEVER be explained by the world and that will just require faith on our part until God can explain them to us.
aaahhhh...suffering...if there is anyone out there who has not had their share of suffering, could they please stand up? Perception is reality. Look around. I am sure that for Triton1, his suffering is great. He sounds as if he is in so much turmoil. But I am sure that on the street of, did he say Illinios?, there is someone out there so much worse off. I am not going to presume to make comparisons, we no nothing of his life.
Here is a quote from the book Did Adam and Eve Have Belly Buttons? It is in response to the question Why does God make us suffer from abuse and diseases like cancer?
"...God does not create abuse and disease, but He sometimes permits them....
...To begin to think about evil, we need to first think about God and what he has revealed. God has one ultimate will, but his will is expressed in two ways: His positive will and His permissive will. His positive will is what brings about all the good we see.
God's permissive will allows evil to happen but only because He intends to bring about a greater good from it (CCC 312). Often, evil is the result of man's free choices (Prv 1;29-30; CCC 1732). God simply allows the natural consequences that inevitably flow from these choices. Even so, God can always bring greater good from this (Rom 8:28)..."
In parenting, this is called "reality discipline". Example, I have told my two year old several times not to climb the ladder or he will get hurt. I cannot remove the ladder or him from the home, so I try to keep him as safe as possible by watching him. Eventually, he falls from the ladder and breaks his collar bone. A minor break that heals quickly. Hopefully, he has learned that the parent know what they are talking about. But, if not, the parent will always be there for the next time he falls.
I don't know if the is allowed, but I have seen sites given in other instances, so hopefully I am not breaking any rules. There is a little boy, I do not know him, but I received a prayer request from a friend in February. It is a remarkable story and a beautiful testimony to this family's faith and also the faith of people in this world. I encourage you to take a look. It is ParkerU.org. Here is a story of suffering and the faith of a family.
In parenting, this is called "reality discipline". Example, I have told my two year old several times not to climb the ladder or he will get hurt. I cannot remove the ladder or him from the home, so I try to keep him as safe as possible by watching him. Eventually, he falls from the ladder and breaks his collar bone. A minor break that heals quickly. Hopefully, he has learned that the parent know what they are talking about. But, if not, the parent will always be there for the next time he falls.
Just one problem with this analogy weather. You can't remove the ladder but as a loving parent you would do everything in your power to prevent your son climbing the ladder, because you love him and don't want him to fall from the ladder....as you know he will do if he does climb the ladder...........but your god is omniscient and he can remove the ladder and avoid his children coming to harm. So why doesn't he? The fact that he doesn't remove the ladder means that either he can't or doesn't want to.
Just one problem with this analogy weather. You can't remove the ladder but as a loving parent you would do everything in your power to prevent your son climbing the ladder, because you love him and don't want him to fall from the ladder....as you know he will do if he does climb the ladder...........but your god is omniscient and he can remove the ladder and avoid his children coming to harm. So why doesn't he? The fact that he doesn't remove the ladder means that either he can't or doesn't want to.
Yes, and here's another thing. The child is willingly climbing the ladder. A sexual abuse victim is not willingly getting raped. A murder victim isn't going again and again toward a murderer even though God says "No! No! Bad!" and then eventually he does get murdered which is his comeuppance. Right? The ladder scenario is saying the child keeps going toward the ladder and eventually gets his comeuppance. So apparently the belief here is that rape or murder or cancer or watching one's child die horribly in pain or what have you must be that person's comeuppance, for...for what? I still don't get how this ladder analogy fits here. What did *those* sufferers "do" that was "wrong" and therefore God lets them "learn their own lesson"?
As far as the remark about suffering being about perception, that's why I pointed out extreme and obvious cases. I believe I did make the analogy about two people *perceiving* a stubbed toe differently. But if you were the victim of sexual abuse for, oh, several years, let's just say, would you be scoffing, "Oh, perception! Yep, that was about the same as being unhappy because you're unmarried and your friends are married." Probably not. (Or I hope not.) I was talking about real, concrete, obviously-suffering examples which do happen, every day. Would you also say it's a matter of perception when one person has stomach cancer and screams in pain every day and another is sad because it rained the day he was supposed to pitch for a baseball game?
Would you say God is saying, "Well (shrug), I 'allow' suffering to everybody. So, I'll let this one get rained on and, um, let's see. Oh yeah. I'll let that other one die slowly and horribly. I mean after all, it's just a person's perception...suffering from cancer, suffering from rain, well, the cancer-person must just be a panty-waist because you don't see the rained-on person crying, do you?"
I hope my point is clear here. I'm not sure it is and I'm not trying to be overly-emotional. I'm asking a concrete question: Why we are told "we all suffer" but some people suffer in obviously small ways and others in obviously horrifying ways. What makes the sufferer of the obviously horrifying traumas more needy of horrible suffering, especially when presumably, we're all suffering "for our own mistakes"? To take it further, are you saying that the person who dies horribly of stomach cancer deserved it on order to learn more about God, and the person who got rained on only needed a little rain to learn more about God?
God's permissive will allows evil to happen but only because He intends to bring about a greater good from it (CCC 312).
Asking as an honest question, because I really do not know...and in case you haven't guessed yet, I'm, well, a seeker... But here'st he question. What, honestly, is the greater good in raping a child? How about in murdering an old woman? The answer might be "we can't know..." and that's okay. I'm not demanding that anyone tell me that he or she knows every answer. I don't know if anyone really knows all the answers. I'm asking because I'd love opinions on that. Can there actually be a "greater good"--in any way, shape or form--to destroying one person's life? Even if there somehow is...then how and why was that one particular person (the rape or murder victim, for example, or cancer sufferer or child diagnosed with leukemia at the age of nine months) singled out to be the "bringer" of whatever that greater good is?
Would love any input, from people of any religion or of no religious beliefs.
Jerz I think the bottom line is you're never going to get answers that satisfy you. The world will never get answers to spiritual matters. The world and spirituality just do not mix. I see many people wether they be athiests or whatever that ask questions that question Christianity and I see Christians answering those questions. The problem is that whoever asked the question usually will not be satisfied by the Christians answer because they are looking at it through the world.
The fact that he doesn't remove the ladder means that either he can't or doesn't want to.
I personally do not see it that way. I could attempt to explain why but it would be absolutely fultile. I'm already starting to feel a bit like a broken record.
Jerz I think the bottom line is you're never going to get answers that satisfy you. The world will never get answers to spiritual matters. The world and spirituality just do not mix. I see many people wether they be athiests or whatever that ask questions that question Christianity and I see Christians answering those questions. The problem is that whoever asked the question usually will not be satisfied by the Christians answer because they are looking at it through the world.
That's so true--and your words are always very nice, btw, dreameyes, and very comforting.
I don't mind, though, that definite answers aren't possible. I'm wondering about opinions, all opinions, because hopefully something will turn up from someone else's words that will maybe be something I didn't consider before. (Oh god, here come the grammar police...sorry.)
I personally do not see it that way. I could attempt to explain why but it would be absolutely fultile. I'm already starting to feel a bit like a broken record.
I actually do believe the ladder analogy *when it comes to free will* but what I'm asking about is things that are thrust upon people that obviously weren't their free will in the first place and aren't even a consequence of other things they may have done.
I do understand if you don't want to take this one idea on, though, because you're right, it may be end up with arguments. It's up to you, dreameyes. Even though my responses sound emotional, I'm definitely taking into consideration every answer. I do have questions connected to the answers, to be sure, and it's okay if people offer their own personal explanation/perception, and also okay if they say, "No way. Been down this road before." LOL.
Thanks to all who have responded so far.
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But here'st he question. What, honestly, is the greater good in raping a child? How about in murdering an old woman? The answer might be "we can't know..." and that's okay. I'm not demanding that anyone tell me that he or she knows every answer. I don't know if anyone really knows all the answers. I'm asking because I'd love opinions on that. Can there actually be a "greater good"--in any way, shape or form--to destroying one person's life? Even if there somehow is...then how and why was that one particular person (the rape or murder victim, for example, or cancer sufferer or child diagnosed with leukemia at the age of nine months) singled out to be the "bringer" of whatever that greater good is?
