Sikhs (hell, Islamic, faith, God)

[Currency Pair Crocodile]

Originally Posted by stycotl

i guess that no group in the world is generally nice––or even has nice members––according to antlers, here. doesn't matter how many friendly jews, christians, atheists, wiccans, plumbers, librarians, or chiropractors we might have known, because somewhere out there, there was another one of that group that was a terrorist or a simple jerk.

and antlers said so, which means that it must be true.

anyone making ginormous generalizations like the above quote is either naive or ignorant of world affairs.

rock on, dude. you never cease to make me lament the educational standards of the world that we live in.

And you are the in-house Sikh historian or even a Sikh. Do me a favour and do some bhalle bhalle for me. I can appreciate some music at least.

[Currency Pair Crocodile]

Originally Posted by Jazzymom

There are extremists in every religion, it does not make the whole religion evil or a bunch of terrorists.

Separatism had nothing to do with religion (like in every case), Jazzy. While I have to agree many sikhs are living peaceful lives "right now", I just can't sit back and see people who give them a blank cheque, after all the ruckus they caused back in my homeland. And quite some modus operandi they had, bomb random places across the country and go hide in the "golden temple". Protected by the people, their gurus and the local politicians.

For example, assassinating a prime minister. I've never seen my father cry, and he did, on that one occasion It was a time when Sikhs were dreaded in every part of the country, even as far as Nagaland.

Or, the general army jokes from ex-classmates who went into the army. That the sikhs are the strongest, tallest, most harassing of the rest of the army men when it came to newbie hazing.

Why them, I have played school, college and inter-state hockey all thru my teens. Why was it that the Sikh lads were the most aggressive and intimidating? They certainly don't like boys who run fast, be it Southies, Deccans, Marathis or Biharis.

A good footnote: Ask any terrorism analyst what was the deadliest aircraft terrorism act before 9/11. The Air India 182 bombing in Ireland, carried out by devoutly Sikh terrorists.

Let's cut the "nice people because they are Sikh" generalization and just say there are good people and bad people.

[Jazzymom]

Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka

Separatism had nothing to do with religion, Jazzy. While I have to agree many sikhs are living peaceful lives "right now", I just can't sit back and see people who give them a blank cheque, after all the ruckus they caused back in my homeland. And quite some modus operandi they had, bomb random places across the country and go hide in the "golden temple". Protected by the people, their gurus and the local politicians.

For example, assassinating a prime minister. I've never seen my father cry, and he did, on that one occasion It was a time when Sikhs were dreaded in every part of the country, even as far as Nagaland.

Or, the general army jokes from ex-classmates who went into the army. That the sikhs are the strongest, tallest, most harassing of the rest of the army men when it came to newbie hazing.

Why them, I have played school, college and inter-state hockey all thru my teens. Why was it that the Sikh lads were the most aggressive and intimidating? They certainly don't like boys who run fast, be it Southies, Deccans, Marathis or Biharis.

Then demonize the particular group who caused the issues. You cannot demonize a whole religion. All Sikhs are not terrorists, as all Muslims are not terrorists. I think its easy for bias to get in the way. In this country bias has surely gotten in the way in how Muslims are viewed after 9/11, but surely not all Muslims are to be blamed for 9/11.

[Currency Pair Crocodile]

Well, they have been behaving well with the rest of the country or have been made to behave, I have to say, post-1985. It was 25 years of hard work.

And I'll also have to point out the ones who wash ashore to the West are the nice ones with a decent education and a will to succeed. They do not form the benchmark for Sikhs

[Brain Candy]

Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka

. While I have to agree many sikhs are living peaceful lives "right now", I just can't sit back and see people who give them a blank cheque

I don't recall seeing anyone saying "all Sikhs are wonderful". All I recall seeing is the sentiment that "all Sikhs I've encountered have been nice..." There's a big difference in those two.

Let's cut the "nice people because they are Sikh" generalization and just say there are good people and bad people.

You're the one fighting so hard to support your own generalization.

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka

And you are the in-house Sikh historian or even a Sikh. Do me a favour and do some bhalle bhalle for me. I can appreciate some music at least.

instead of trying unsuccessfully to be subtle about the fact that you don't have an argument, you could just come out and say it.

i haven't made any allusions to me being an expert on the sikh; i have never claimed that i know them all, or that they are all nice people. i claimed that the ones that i knew were very cool, and your emotional outbursts do not change any of that.

you should go back and reread the posts a little more slowly. i think that you will understand more.

Let's cut the "nice people because they are Sikh" generalization and just say there are good people and bad people.

i don't think it has much to do at all with the fact that they are sikh; it has to do with the fact that they are human beings. believe it or not, most of us are pretty decent and friendly, religious and ethnic differences notwithstanding.

but while we're cutting generalizations about people of a certain religion being "nice," let's cut the rest of the generalizations too, and the emotional reactions too.

Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka

after all the ruckus they caused back in my homeland.

generalization; emotional reaction.

I've never seen my father cry, and he did, on that one occasion

emotional reaction.

Or, the general army jokes from ex-classmates who went into the army. That the sikhs are the strongest, tallest, most harassing of the rest of the army men when it came to newbie hazing.

generalization.

Why was it that the Sikh lads were the most aggressive and intimidating? They certainly don't like boys who run fast, be it Southies, Deccans, Marathis or Biharis.

generalization; likely emotional reaction too.

Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka

Well, they have been behaving well with the rest of the country or have been made to behave, I have to say, post-1985. It was 25 years of hard work.

generalization; baseless accusation; probable ad hominem.

A good footnote: Ask any terrorism analyst what was the deadliest aircraft terrorism act before 9/11. The Air India 182 bombing in Ireland, carried out by devoutly Sikh terrorists.

great. as you mentioned earlier, they don't set the benchmark. every muslim is not responsible for the criminally inhumane actions of the minority. similarly, every christian, sikh, hindu, or atheist is not responsible for the actions of the few idiots out there that might share a similar theology.

And I'll also have to point out the ones who wash ashore to the West are the nice ones with a decent education and a will to succeed. They do not form the benchmark for Sikhs

you don't get to decide which of them set the benchmark and which ones don't. you don't have the experience or the intellect sufficient for the job, and frankly, no one is waiting to figure out which groups you are prejudiced against in order to jump on that bandwagon.

[Currency Pair Crocodile]

Oh I see, I don't have much common ground with the ACLU crowd. I'm never going to agree, which is setting me up for an exercise in futility. And I do know what kind of exercise that can be, coz long back I tried wanking with a PC world magazine to break the common ground rule and I learned the hard way I wasn't getting an erection with that kind of magazine. You should at least try the Punjabi thali, it's off the hook, I hope.

[Thomas R.]

Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka

Anyone calling the Sikhs "generally nice people" is either naive or ignorant of world affairs

Apparently none of you knows of the Sikh separatist terrorists who rocked India in the 70s and 80s, and had to be put down with an iron hand.

Please, people, for Pete's sake, put your ignorant generalizations out of the discussion room.

Just coz the one you met is nice to you does not mean Sikhs are angels in general

I had actually desired both a "pro" and a "con" view of the religion so long as it didn't get out of hand the way anti-Christian or anti-Islam bashing here does.

I think you might be going a bit too far, but I had heard of Sikh terrorism. Much of what I read of them before I did this thread concerned Sikh terrorists. Still I believe they had been persecuted for a long time before then so it influenced that.

Going by what I read Sikhs don't seem to cause any problems in the US anyway. I think India's current leader is a Sikh. Possibly the thread was too positive before your post so I do thank you for an alternative view even if it's maybe a bit over-the-top.

[Currency Pair Crocodile]

Originally Posted by Thomas R.

I had actually desired both a "pro" and a "con" view of the religion so long as it didn't get out of hand the way anti-Christian or anti-Islam bashing here does.

I think you might be going a bit too far, but I had heard of Sikh terrorism. Much of what I read of them before I did this thread concerned Sikh terrorists. Still I believe they had been persecuted for a long time before then so it influenced that.

Going by what I read Sikhs don't seem to cause any problems in the US anyway. I think India's current leader is a Sikh. Possibly the thread was too positive before your post so I do thank you for an alternative view even if it's maybe a bit over-the-top.

Mea Culpa, Thomas. I was a little over the top, but substance is substance, I bring testimony from real life experience, not from my secluded gated townhome in some green sub-urb, with access to the tv and the computer. You're one of the fewest members of the board I deeply respect. If I have misbehaved, I apologize.

[Thomas R.]

It's not a big thing. I've been the sole "contrarian" voice in political discussions and sometimes that can inspire a person to really "go big" with it. You were pretty much the sole critical voice and you went "all in" I guess. If I had some discomfort it's because you seemed to be maybe demonizing the lot of them and that seemed maybe unfair.

Also I felt bad for the Sikhs after 9-11 because it sounded like they were getting attacked for things they had no involvement in. They weren't being attacked or having turbans banned because of the stuff that happened in India or Canada in the 1970s. (I believe some Sikhs blew up a plane that was going to land in Canada) It was just a lumping them in with Muslims. Also India seems full of inter-religion/inter-ethnic squabbling so I never know who's really right there. Like awhile back a bunch of Hindu radicals killed Christians. Although it sounds like the Hindus were in the wrong I can't rule out that some of their allegations, like tricking poor people into conversion, are true. There are some Christian charities that do require you to hear evangelizing sermons if you accept their aid. People still have free-will and can tune this out, but I can see the ethical problem.

Or the fights between the Hindus and the Muslims. There are two-sides and both have made errors. Or the Muslims and the Sikhs or whatever. I know some about it, but some of it is a mystery to me.