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Thank you very much for the sincerity and thoroughness of your response. I will certainly try to do the same in mine. I would like to start by stating that i cannot "prove" to you that God exists anymore than you can "prove" to me evolution, however we can both share with each other "evidence" as we each see it. I will try to keep this brief but one of the prophecies I was referring to actually comes from Daniel 8 and I quote verses 20-22 " 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power." What amazes me is that this was written a year before Babylon fell to the Medes and the Persians let alone the rise of Alexander the Great, and the fall of his empire which was split amongst his 4 generals. There are many other aspects of scripture that speak to its divine nature, and this site does a very good job of articulating those better than I can here. Is-There-Anything-Left-You-Can-Trust?
I really do love science and I'm always watching science related shows on discovery channel and Nat Geo, but I just see all the "evidence" they claim is for evolution as pointing to a common Creator. I also think that much of the fossil record points to a global catastrophic flood, that thoroughly distorted the methods we use today to determine the age of things. Understanding that the evolutionary idea rests upon the notion of billions of years, I just don't see proof for the idea that this planet has been here that long. So, with regards to the creation of all things "God did it" works well for me.
I am assuming that you were raised in a Christian family, because you seem well and truly indoctrinated, if you dismiss all the tons of evidence for evolution and and old earth in favour of "God did it"
[quote=sanspeur;13585677][quote]=HalfNelson;13585483]But society changes from culture to culture and from century to century.
Quote:
That is a cop out....Theocracies are always very harsh as I said...How is it just to whip the victim of a rape? This and many other things I would say are unjust go on today in theocracies
What is God's justice in these situations, Wait I know they go to hell....How about the violent criminals that get caught, imprisoned, but convert and repent in prison? Do they get a "go to heaven free card"?
God's justice....
Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)
If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10)
If a priest's daughter is a *****, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)
Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)
Anyone who dreams or prophesizes anything that is against God, or anyone who tries to turn you from God, is to be put to death. (Deuteronomy 13:5)
If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)
If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
Well you can keep God's kind of justice...People like you scare me, because you would happily vote for a theocracy. In a theocracy it is not god that controls the people or provides justice, but the leaders of the religion....I like our system just the way it is, thank you.
The only theocracy I would vote for was one with Christ as King. I love it how atheists love reciting those old testament civil laws as though they are the only example of God's character through all of scripture. Never do I hear them quote John 3:16 about how much God loved the world. I am not going to lie to you and say that I completely understand the hows and whys of God dealing so harshly with His people back then, cause I don't. But I am also not going to presume that there wasn't just cause for His actions.
I never said that it was just to whip the victim of rape. I never said I believed in human run theocracies. What you seem to be missing is that the absence of God does not mean any of the atrocities did not happen, it just means that all of them will go unexplained and unanswered for. However with God, all things will one day be accounted for and answered for. Right now there are history books and science books full of things we just cannot explain. Some things look downright abhorrent to us given the knowledge we have at this moment in time. However, knowing God assures me that one day I won't have those questions anymore. I'll know. If there is anything that I have learned in my mere 34 years on this planet, its that there is always a bigger picture than we can see, and simply dismissing that which lays outside of the picture we can see, does us no good. Many times I have seen an adolescent child lash out at their parents for the most trivial things. The child acts as though the parent is a malevolent dictator who hates them and only seeks their utter misery, when the parent actually loves them more than they can understand and has to discipline them because of that love.
I am assuming that you were raised in a Christian family, because you seem well and truly indoctrinated, if you dismiss all the tons of evidence for evolution and and old earth in favour of "God did it"
I am just as free as you are to search for truth. Why must it be indoctrination, if I come to find a different truth than the one you hold to?
EVERY TIME I observe "Nature" did it. They are indistinguishable. God is ALL that there is to observe. The name change was the result of the religious tyranny and persecution of the earliest scientists. To avoid any possibility of a repeat (or the injection of religious BS into science curricula) the artificial distinction was made and is maintained without ANY scientific justification for it whatsoever.
Thank you very much for the sincerity and thoroughness of your response. I will certainly try to do the same in mine. I would like to start by stating that i cannot "prove" to you that God exists anymore than you can "prove" to me evolution, however we can both share with each other "evidence" as we each see it. I will try to keep this brief but one of the prophecies I was referring to actually comes from Daniel 8 and I quote verses 20-22 " 20 The two-horned ram that you saw represents the kings of Media and Persia. 21 The shaggy goat is the king of Greece, and the large horn between his eyes is the first king. 22 The four horns that replaced the one that was broken off represent four kingdoms that will emerge from his nation but will not have the same power." What amazes me is that this was written a year before Babylon fell to the Medes and the Persians let alone the rise of Alexander the Great, and the fall of his empire which was split amongst his 4 generals. There are many other aspects of scripture that speak to its divine nature, and this site does a very good job of articulating those better than I can here. Is-There-Anything-Left-You-Can-Trust?
I really do love science and I'm always watching science related shows on discovery channel and Nat Geo, but I just see all the "evidence" they claim is for evolution as pointing to a common Creator. I also think that much of the fossil record points to a global catastrophic flood, that thoroughly distorted the methods we use today to determine the age of things. Understanding that the evolutionary idea rests upon the notion of billions of years, I just don't see proof for the idea that this planet has been here that long. So, with regards to the creation of all things "God did it" works well for me.
hmmm. I must admit that I'm not well versed in Bible prophecy and I'm still a bit confused about the prophecies you mentioned. But, that is not your fault; it is just my ignorance in the matter. I need to read more about this so that I can debate better. With that being said, I've been trying to school myself on biblical thought; unfortunately, it is a recent endeavor and I can't give a thoughtful response. So, I won't even try.
Also, you raised a valid point about dating methods. I agree, one must accept the premise that the earth is billions of years old before one can accept evolution. Admittedly, dating methods are not a big interest of mine so I won't be much help in this area. I've read about it many years ago but, sadly, I cannot remember the facts to give to you. This is one area that I studied, accepted on evidence as part of my view of the universe, and then forgot the details. But, off the top off my head, how do you explain the distance of stars and galaxies if you don't accept the age of the universe?
Oh, and I have to say that I am enjoying this debate with you. We are both sharpening our skills as we learn the flaws in our arguments. And, we are learning without being jackasses. That, for me, is always interesting.
EVERY TIME I observe "Nature" did it. They are indistinguishable. God is ALL that there is to observe. The name change was the result of the religious tyranny and persecution of the earliest scientists. To avoid any possibility of a repeat (or the injection of religious BS into science curricula) the artificial distinction was made and is maintained without ANY scientific justification for it whatsoever.
Aaaargh. Look, I'm presenting my viewpoint in a polite manner. I've read your posts, debated with you in the past and gotten frustrated with you because of your belligerent tone. Maybe you don't mean to come across that way but, dang it, you do. I've tried to maintain peace in this debate so we could all learn. So, please, be a bit less hostile so I can respond in kind. Look, I'm human and I tend to respond in the same manner I'm presented with by the poster. I disagree with HalfNelson, but he's been civil in all of his responses. I try to respond in kind.
With that being said, nature does not need 'god'. God, by common definition is an intelligent and omnipotent being. Until this all pervading intelligence is discovered and observed, nature is a better term for what is happening in the universe.
hmmm. I must admit that I'm not well versed in Bible prophecy and I'm still a bit confused about the prophecies you mentioned. But, that is not your fault; it is just my ignorance in the matter. I need to read more about this so that I can debate better. With that being said, I've been trying to school myself on biblical thought; unfortunately, it is a recent endeavor and I can't give a thoughtful response. So, I won't even try.
Also, you raised a valid point about dating methods. I agree, one must accept the premise that the earth is billions of years old before one can accept evolution. Admittedly, dating methods are not a big interest of mine so I won't be much help in this area. I've read about it many years ago but, sadly, I cannot remember the facts to give to you. This is one area that I studied, accepted on evidence as part of my view of the universe, and then forgot the details. But, off the top off my head, how do you explain the distance of stars and galaxies if you don't accept the age of the universe?
Oh, and I have to say that I am enjoying this debate with you. We are both sharpening our skills as we learn the flaws in our arguments. And, we are learning without being jackasses. That, for me, is always interesting.
I too am enjoying the dialogue and hope we aren't doing too much thread hijacking. As for the distance of stars and galaxies, I think that there are many possibilities. First, when dealing with a God who can speak planets into existence, it isn't a stretch to think that He very well could have created all the light between earth and the stars just as instantly as He created the stars themselves. Isaiah 48:13 says "My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens" so I think He could have created them close and then flung them out to their far off places, but I don't really know. It is just another one of those questions I can't wait to ask Him, right along with how to master FTL travel.
I too am enjoying the dialogue and hope we aren't doing too much thread hijacking. As for the distance of stars and galaxies, I think that there are many possibilities. First, when dealing with a God who can speak planets into existence, it isn't a stretch to think that He very well could have created all the light between earth and the stars just as instantly as He created the stars themselves. Isaiah 48:13 says "My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens" so I think He could have created them close and then flung them out to their far off places, but I don't really know. It is just another one of those questions I can't wait to ask Him, right along with how to master FTL travel.
Hopefully, Vic or one of the mods will let us know soon if we need to move this conversation to another area. This debate we are having is great because there is no shame in admitting ignorance on subject matter. This is how we learn.
So, I would like to question your view of secular dating methods. Why do you disagree? What are the errors that you find?
Also, with regards to the distance of stars and galaxies, why would god try to trick us as to the age of our universe?
Hopefully, Vic or one of the mods will let us know soon if we need to move this conversation to another area. This debate we are having is great because there is no shame in admitting ignorance on subject matter. This is how we learn.
So, I would like to question your view of secular dating methods. Why do you disagree? What are the errors that you find?
Also, with regards to the distance of stars and galaxies, why would god try to trick us as to the age of our universe?
I don't think that God is necessarily trying to trick us. That would assume that everything we know today is 100% accurate, when there is the possibility that forces beyond which we can know have acted upon our universe in a way that would account for such anomalies. The way I see it is, God trying to explain all the details of creation to us is a bit like trying to explain quantum physics to a 4 yr old. We "know" today that light has a constant speed, because we have not observed it traveling any faster, but what if it could be accelerated or slowed down? Just because we cannot conceive of how that could be possible doesn't make it impossible. I sometimes view God as being just as excited to tell us all these things as we are to learn about them, but He knows that the time will come when much of what we desire to know will be explained.
As to the age of the earth part, I have heard that water and pressure can drastically distort dating methods. I read that there were some igneous rock formations created when Mt St. Helens erupted less than 40 yrs ago, that were dated using current methods and they were dated back millions of years instead of the 40 yrs or so we know them to be. Also read about a wooly mammoth whose hind legs were dated to one age and the front was dated to a completely different age. I also know that radiocarbon dating assumes that, the rate we have seen isotopes decay since we started measuring their decay, has always been the same rate, thereby extrapolating their age based on that rate of decay. What if events outside our scope of knowledge greatly altered that rate of decay.
Here's my initial point: is religious answer "God did it" good for human knowledge advancement?
I mean, if something has no answer yet, we just stop there "God did it", do you think human society would still be moving forward?
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