Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This is horribly scary! How can we protect ourselves from this happening in our older years?
I have more to tell. Later.
Tell your kids you are leaving everything to charities since they are doing so well on their own....that should keep them from trying to gain access, even if you are leaving everything to them in actuality!
Think of it this way, if you don't make a PLAN in advance, one may have to be made for you and you'll have fewer choices.
I started begging my parents 15 years ago to plan for their future, they were 65. My dad retired about that time. They KNEW they wouldn't be able to live in their home forever, and whenever I brought the subject up, however gently, they bolted like scared bunny rabbits. Two years later, my dad started getting evaluated for cognitive impairment. By 2005, he was clearly headed for dementia. I BEGGED mom repeatedly to explore various options for downsizing to something more practical. They have a 4 bedroom suburban split level that is not easy to maintain or convenient to much of anything but strip malls. They live in suburban washngton DC which IMHO is not senior friendly.
As my father declined, my mom furiously fought any conversations about planning for the future. She became less competent to care for him. by 2010 she was locked into a daily struggle to maintain the home and monitor him, and her own mental illness was getting worse as a result. We tried everything we could think of to get her to put him into a day program, she fought that for a year. The she fought putting him in a facility. Her psychiatrist seems to be unaware of her deficiencies because she tells him what she thinks he wants to hear. She hurt her back very badly and her MD sent her, an alcoholic, home with a bottle of percoset to take care of my dad, who is also his patient. Dad has three different doctors prescribing contrary meds and we have to struggle with mom just to find out the details of his care plan. The MD seems completely clueless.
If you met my mom in a social setting, you would have thought everything was fine. I'd say about 6 months ago that changed and you would now wonder about her almost immediately upon meeting her. She currently cannot walk upright due to her hip being out of alignment, and she refuses to go to physical therapy. (which has worked in the past)
Now she has begun her own cognitive decline, forgetting where she is driving to for what reason, missing appointments, unable to complete the most basic of conversations about what a next step could be. We have our own homes, jobs and families to tend to and limited time to assist. Dad's facility is mediocre at best, but she gets angry if we communicate our concerns to the facility 'behind her back'.
She wants control, wants to be in charge, and does everything the most difficult way possible. If we suggest things such as Mail-order pharmacy, she complains about the extra cost, regardless of evidence to the contrary. Any idea she doesn't like,instead of giving a measured answer, she makes up reasons why it won't work or help, with great imagination and belief in her own fantasies. She lies to us repeatedly, and we don't know if she is always aware she is doing it.
If you could see her when we try to discuss ANY aspect of her life at this point and how to help, you would see the absolute FURY she reaches. My brothers and I are smart, competent, of good character. We don't care about the money. We don't have ulterior motives. We are holding our breath waiting for some accident to make her house of cards come crumbling down. I personally think it will be a car accident, my brothers bet on a pot left on the stove.
So if you would criticize me for someday having to sue for guardianship of my father, or place my mother into a facility of some kind, you go right ahead. I am very confident that we are doing the very best we can in a very difficult situation. Blame for this situation falls COMPLETELY on my mom, who has lived in denial for the past 15 years.
Situations like this are a quiet crisis in our country. What happens to people like my mom who don't have decent insurance or financial resources or children who can help? Why can't the medical community help more?
So please don't indulge in paranoid ramblings and urban legends about children forcing their elders to move to a home. Go see an attorney and get your stuff together. Look realistically at your current living arrangements and then look realistically at what that should look like in 2020, 2025,2030, 2050. And MAKE a viable plan for change that you can implement in small steps, rather than wait for that big bang that sends you from rehab to a home with your children left to clean up the mess you left behind because you refused to take responsibility.
Stagemomma, I feel for you and know your pain. We are caring for my MIL who is now in AL. Our situation is so much LESS taxing than yours, but I understand what you are going through. It's easy for someone who has never gone through this to hear the short version of the story from the parent's side and assume the worst. In reality, dealing with someone who is slowly sliding down the slope in cognitive ability is frustrating and painful for everyone involved.
We knew we had to get MIL into AL when she became unable to handle her own med regimen and we found out she was hording OTC meds. It had been going on for sometime unbeknownst to us, because we had it all set up for her to easily get her meds refilled and have her co-pays billed to her checking account. First she lived with us when her finances started running low and she was unhappy and requested to live in an IL. We helped her to move into the ILF, and we managed her accounts for years because she never paid bills in her life. FIL handled all the finances and she had a very hard time managing after his death. We started noticing excessive charges by the pharmacy and the drug store and she was asking for unusual amounts of cash (several hundred per month) for her weekly shopping trips to Walmart on the IL bus. On a visit to her apartment I noticed many bottles of allergy meds and started looking through drawers, she had over 100 bottles of OTC pain, allergy and sleep meds in her tiny studio apartment. She also kept calling the pharmacy for refills on her sleeping pills long before they could be legally refilled. When she called us furious that she could not get refills only 5 days after her last refill, we had to step in and talk her into moving into an ALF, where they could manage her meds. We had her turn in her 30 day notice and in that 30 days her IL facility called us a few times to tell us that she was disoriented and trying to go to the doctor every day or two without appointments. We even got phone calls from her when she would ask us when her cruise would be over and what port they would be in next. She believed she was on a cruise ship in her own apartment! We had the doctor run every test we could think of for UTI's, nutritional deficiencies, toxics, whatever to see why she had so suddenly declined in the cognitive area. Nothing was found. She was furious when she realized that she would no longer have access to her meds and that they would be dispensed by the AL nursing staff. She still fights with us about that, but I think she is now satisfied that it was for the best. She agreed to the move, but then blamed us and behaved as if we had tricked her. She cried, and cursed us, and tried to make us feel guilty. At first I felt so weighed down and hurt by all her accusations, even though we knew it was for the best. She is happier now and she no longer is constantly worrying about her med regimen or constantly worried about running out of pills. She is the type that, unless you see her in one of her "moments", you would never know that she is impaired. She was a teacher and an English major, is very intelligent, and reads constantly. But the fact is that she sometimes has no idea where she is, she forgets that family members are now deceased, she simply could not get through life without us managing her finances and her medical care because of her short term memory loss. It's a little like that movie "50 First Dates". We are her short term memory.
We're childless and I sometimes wonder how I will manage if/when I find myself in her circumstances.
Stagemomma: My heart is aching for you. What you are going through is so exhausting and frustrating. From what you have written, you are doing the best you can plus so much more. You will get no criticism here.
In some situations, you have to "take the bull by the horns" and plunge into making decisions for her. Find a doctor who specializes in elder care. Talk to the Dept. for the Aging in your area. Your Mom is clearly in no position to make decisions for herself now. You can get help. The decisions you have made and will make in the future are huge and depending on how you handle it could put you in the ground.
And try to remember that your mother is not thinking with a rational mind. No matter the hurtful things she may say to you, do not take it personally. She is no doubt feeling fear and both of you need help.
Stagemomma, can you have her GP or psychiatrist give her the MMSE (test for cognitive decline) and have them discuss the results with her? It was only after the DR did this and discussed it with her did my MIL really admit to us that she felt she was "losing some of her marbles" as she puts it. I think it was a relief to her to finally admit it. Even though we had known for a couple years she was slipping, she tried so hard to hide it, I don't think she knew that we knew. Now we can discuss it openly and she's not so angry, frustrated, and embarrassed about her moments. For some reason the elderly seem to respect the opinion of their doctors more than their kids, or even themselves sometimes.
My experience mirrors StageMomma's and I agree completely with her. As a child with a difficult 80-year-old mom, here is the other side of the story.
Mom has a $2,000 per month income. She lost her license, yet she bought a car (to "preserve her independence") and drives anyway, even though she has been declared unfit and has no insurance. She bought new furniture. A Persian carpet. All on credit. Now has no money to pay rent (since she doesn't own a home) and so she expects me to pay her rent for her. She has lived rent-free in my second home for 10 years (while I was overseas), with an expectation that she simply maintain it. She didn't take care of it or maintain it at all and it became so termite-ridden it had to be torn down. Since she had to move, but had no money, I am the one paying for her apartment now. She can't afford assisted living, and I can't afford any more than I'm already doing for her. If I had POA over her finances I would save money for her care and not let her buy all this needless stuff. Of course she would tell everyone how mean I am and controlling her money, but that would be only half the story.
She is frail and doesn't get around well, and yet does things she shouldn't---like climbing on ladders to put up drapes. Inevitably she falls, and breaks something, which occasions stays in hospitals and more difficulty with her daily care. She refuses to go to assisted living (not that we could afford it anyway), which would be a safer environment. She does everything she can to make things more difficult, without any thought to the time or finances of those who are her caregivers. We too are still working and so have a lot on our plate. She falls frequently (of course we have done things like outfitted her with a fall alarm; yet more money since she pays for nothing herself and we have no control over her finances). We have thought about having her live with us but she is so contrary, difficult, manipulative and disruptive that this is an unacceptable solution to my husband.
When a caregiver is spending ALL OF THEIR TIME taking care of an elderly person, it is time for that elderly person to consider that there might be other or better alternatives. Elders can simply wear out their adult children, who are still trying to earn a living in addition to caring for aging relatives. Continuing to live in a house with stairs or other dangers is not necessarily the best thing for an elder, even if they don't want to move. Elderly parents can be very manipulative: they know just what buttons to push, since they are the ones who programmed those buttons! And frankly if you raised kids who would truly steal your assets, then you are merely reaping the results of your own labors.
My dad on the other hand (they are long-divorced) planned ahead, went to a very nice assisted living place near me, had the funds to pay for it himself, and lived quite a long while because of the excellent care he received there.
Last edited by roeslers; 08-15-2015 at 10:03 AM..
Reason: left some stuff out
Thanks for the supportive comments but I do NOT want to hijack this thread. I'm active on the Caregivers board. I just wanted to point out the alternative to the OPs point of view.
Please stick to the topic of senior life planning! It's an important one, and too many people say they'll think about it later. If you are retired, there is no later. Do it NOW!
Or possibly too embarrassed to admit to you they had signed something previously, having foolishly trusted their children.
My sister in law was a pretty sneaky low life that would do those kind of things to her mother. Get her to sign things that she really shouldn't have signed.
Moral to the story---be kind and fair to your kids, they will decide/manipulate your later years.
I agree with the above and just because we've been good parents, that doesn't mean our kids always turn out to be the adults we want them to be. Some people are just manipulative sneaks.
I love my son dearly, but I realized a couple of years after I put his name on my house that I have no right to throw him out. I did that so he wouldn't be hit with inheritance tax. He's not a lazy bum that I'm supporting and he'll be blind one day and I'll do everything in my power to help him through this. He's a good, moral and honest person and I can only pray that he's not capable of any type of manipulation when I'm elderly.
There have been a couple of times I wanted to throw him out, but I can't.
I was trying to save him money when I die, so I suggest that parents DO NOT PUT THEIR ADULT CHILDREN'S NAMES ON THE DEED TO THEIR HOUSES.
I have heard of horror stories where the adult kids scam the crap out of their parents. It's such a shame.
Addition... I just read a few more stories to the other sides of this dilemma. My heart goes out to any adult child having to deal with those situations. I'm so sorry.
I totally agree with Stagemomma that we need to get our crap together now and not have our kids go through what she and other good adult children are having to go through because we put it off.
If you could see her when we try to discuss ANY aspect of her life at this point and how to help, you would see the absolute FURY she reaches. My brothers and I are smart, competent, of good character. We don't care about the money. We don't have ulterior motives. We are holding our breath waiting for some accident to make her house of cards come crumbling down. I personally think it will be a car accident, my brothers bet on a pot left on the stove.
My MIL is at the stage where she is mostly competent, if she is having a good day. The problem is that she insists she is competent to handle her own finances, which she is demonstrably NOT. She listens to TV news/religion all day long, has become convinced that US collapse is imminent and that we are at The End Times, shifted all of her money over in to metals and oil when the price was climbing, including selling assets and buying coins (not bullion coins but coins she insists have numismatic value, which they don't, they are essentially fancy bullion that she bought at 3x the price). This has resulted in her losing, literally, hundreds of thousands of dollars that should be there for her assisted living care (which currently runs about $5,000 a month in rent alone).
Sure, it is likely that the price of metals and other commodities will come back up some, but what she doesn't understand is that when you lose more than half of your principal, you need to make 100% return to get back to where you were. She is also 92 and should NOT be investing for the long haul.
She and my deceased FIL have a very complicated trust, written probably 30 years ago, to safeguard the "estate" from paying income taxes that has some bizarre and punitive clauses in it, many of which were written to keep the surviving spouse from marrying again and spending any money on a new spouse and to make sure "the kids" couldn't spend the trust's money. When my FIL died, meeting the provisions of the new trust was a pain and costs us (well, the estate) about $10,000 in legal fees to straighten out.
She is absolutely, 100%, unwilling to change her investment style. Could we have her declared incompetent and take over the accounts? Probably. Will we? No. It is her money to lose. But I think her younger self, the one who set up the trust 30 years ago, would be appalled by her current actions.
Last edited by PNW-type-gal; 08-15-2015 at 11:41 AM..
Reason: typos, ack!
You've all given me something to think about. I have known instances where much was done behind the scenes, "probably" without the knowledge of the elders. They may not have suspected that anything was up, and would never suspect their own children. Yes, I am aware that patients are tested before they are declared incompetent, but we all may have heard of instances where this was worked out privately between the children and the doctors. If not, we should know. Politics doesn't end at retirement.
The process may be more difficult in some states, I'll acknowledge that. It looks as if this may indeed be a case where having a good attorney in advance may be the best move.
I do know that in these two cases I cited, the parents absolutely did not know in advance that anything was up. They trusted their children. The kids did NOT have POA, at least not at the point when the move occurred. Is it possible for a doctor to "test" a patient for competency, without telling the patient?
^^^And risk the possibility of being sued? You have heard of HIPPA, correct? A patient's doctor cannot run a battery of tests on them for no reason and to do so will draw questions from an insurance company as well as Medicare.
I doubt many seniors will submit to such testing for reasons told them; I won't.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
