Can Our Grown Children Become Our Worst Enemies? (pension, acquaintance, marriage)
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That court appointed thing is no joke. My mom's neighbors kids kept squabbling about their mother's care and one took the other to court, which appointed one of those services. Totally corrupt. The whole thing was heartbreaking to watch. They took the family for a ride financially and caused them no end of problems, paperwork. Apparently it is a very unregulated industry.
So thankful my mother manged her affairs well till a couple years before the end. She really didn't want to go into a nursing (briefly) then "adult foster care" (family run nursing home sort of thing) and it was very hard but I don't remember many legal problems with it. She had fallen and couldn't get up and went to the hospital briefly. After that they just asked us - where do you want her sent? That was it. No one was really listening to her at that point even though her mind wasn't really bad. She just couldn't physically go home alone. If someone did an assessment I don't know about it. Maybe they said something to my sister. We did try in home care briefly after a nursing care "rehab" stint but unbeknownst to us she had a bladder infection that was causing her to be..........a totally possessed crazy hellion. I had no idea a bladder infection could do that. The in home caretaker quit called an ambulance and they took her to a hospital with a geriatic psych ward, then it was back to the nursing home.
FYI - if any of your elders goes bat**** you should get that checked posthaste. Many elderly women won't have any other symptoms like pain, burning. http://blog.alz.org/sudden-change-in...-be-the-cause/
That wouldn't influence me in the slightest. If my parents ever need care that can only be provided in a nursing home setting, they are going to get it - and if they are mentally incompetent, they will get it whether or not they object. If that means forfeiting an inheritance, so be it. Their well being is more important than mere money.
I agree.
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Originally Posted by GeoffD
A lot of people are extremely skilled at masking their dementia problems ... A physician office visit doesn't last long enough to have that happen.
Exactly.
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Originally Posted by PhxBarb
Nor'Eastah:
Did you live next door to my Mom? She lived alone in a two story house and looked and acted very competent, up to a point. But, although she sometimes had her wits about her, she still needed alot of help at home and full time nursing wasn't feasible due to cost. As POA, I tried to maintain her in her house for as long as possible. But as the only "child", I was told by social services that she needed "placement." Yes, I had to tell her some partial truths to get her to leave the home. By law, I didn't have a choice. She was 100, I was in another state, and there were no other relatives. Yes, I sold her house after she left. She went to an ALF in MY STATE. So, was I the nasty daughter who did this to her??
You don't have all the facts and because you don't know the children of these people, you need to realize this was probably the only solution.. I am sure there were other related facts that you are not aware of.
Having to do this, becoming your parents' parent, is not fun. I get so irritated when people get all judgmental toward the children who are faced with difficult choices. In my experience, the judgmental people have never been in that situation and don't have a clue.
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Originally Posted by newcomputer
I am not saying anything was done wrong here, but I have a question: If you are declared incompetent, do you have to sign papers giving POA?
If you are declared incompetent, you cannot sign papers giving POA. That is why the court appoints a guardian/conservator.
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Originally Posted by jane_sm1th73
The "professional conservator" racket is alive and well in corrupt states, such as CT.
This is a different instance, where probate court judges routinely apportion probate cases to their
buddies, who strip the estate (and split the proceeds with said judges) over a period of several years.
YOU DO NOT WANT TO DIE IN CONNECTICUT!!!
This makes no sense. A conservator is appointed to handle the affairs of a living person. Probate happens after death.
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Originally Posted by KYBob
A few years ago my father was in the hospital for some heart issues. At that time I had POA and medical POA and my father had been living with us for 3 years as he had a major stroke and was going blind and couldn't take care of himself.
After a few days I couldn't get in contact with the "hospitalist" to get an update on my father's health. I had left messages with the nurses but the "hospitalist" refused to reply. Finally a couple days layer (total stay 5 days) I heard the doctor introduce himself to a patient in another room down the hall. I waited outside the room and cornered him in the hallway. I introduced myself and asked for an update on my father. He said that he was fine but they were just waiting for an evaluation. I asked what kind of evaluation and he said they were trying to determine whether he could take care of himself. At that time I exploded and told him that if he had taken the time to call me as requested multiple times I would have told him that he can't and doesn't live by himself. He was released two hours later.
The point of this post is that I don't really know where this situation would have gone if there was an evaluation, or if I hadn't cornered the "hospitalist" in the hallway.
By the way, although probably not appropriate for the retirement forum, a thread on the role of the "hospitalist" and how it is degrading our health system would be enlightening for many!
Thank you for giving me a heads up on the hospitalist thread. I must avoid reading it for the sake of my blood pressure. I despise hospitalists.
BTW, when my father was hospitalized and the staff determined he couldn't take care of himself, they insisted that I take him to my home. Unfortunately, that couldn't happen for a variety of reasons. I had to fight like h*ll to get the discharge planner to assist with other arrangements.
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Originally Posted by Clemencia53
The doctor probably ordered some type of rehab after his hospital stay. Lots of times it is done at a nursing home environment.
Exactly, and very often, an elder experiences a cognitive decline after a hospital stay.
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Originally Posted by yellowsnow
There's something missing here. My father had Alzheimer's and we had to do this. We had to go to a court hearing and talk to a judge to get it done. My father had to appear in court. It was all out in the open. No way you could ever just do this to someone without their knowledge. Making poor choices/decisions or just being old does not give your children or anyone else the right to just take over your affairs or decide where you live. It doesn't work that way.
And it's easy to prove you are competent. You pretty much just need to know who you are, where you are, the date, and who is President. And be able to string together a couple of coherent sentences. And your lawyer will coach you before the hearing if you are trying to avoid the declaration. There are no essay questions either. As long as you meet the minimum requirements to be judged competent you can leave all your assets to the TV reverend or walk around with tin foil on your head.
It's not easy to do this at all! And it shouldn't be easy.
Exactly.
Listen, folks, certainly there are children who take advantage of and abuse their elderly parents, just as there are parents who abuse their children. But those are exceptions.
If you're paranoid about your kids "becoming your worst enemies," then do something to avoid it!
1) Make sure your financial and healthcare POAs are up to date and you trust the people you designate.
2) MAKE A PLAN. And, no, "I want to stay in my home until I die" and "Promise me you'll never put me in a home" is NOT a plan, unless you have enough money for 24/7 private caregivers, possibly two at the same time at the end if you're dead weight or obese and you're a "two-person assist."
I know of two instances where parents put their children's name on house deed
And the parents were kicked out.
It is terrible.
I actually counseled my financial person against
putting his daughters name on the deed.
He actually listened to me.
Oldsters think they are protecting their assets; they aren't!
Be aware that nursing homes themselves can claim legal guardianship over a patient, and get access to the elder's funds. This is just now coming to light in the news.
I would never have thought that I'd be asking this question.
I have become aware of 2 situations where retirees have had their entire world up-ended by their grown children, without being consulted by them, or taking part in the decision-making process:
* A 73-year-old man lost his wife to heart disease. A few months later, he had relatively minor surgery that involved a 3-day hospital stay. Upon release, he expected his daughter to drive him home. Instead, she dropped him off at a 'rest home', which he was told was temporary. He never saw his home again - it was sold shortly thereafter, and he remained at that 'rest home' until his passing, some 10 years later.
* A 78-year-old man and his 75-year-old wife were living uneventfully in their own home, doing fine. The man was proud of his Huguenot heritage, and was amassing an impressive collection of articles and memorabilia of others who shared his unusual last name; the point being that he was very sharp and active on eBay and other websites where he found these collectibles (which didn't take up much space). In less than a day, and with no warning, he and his wife were moved into a senior community, their home sold, and his collection of rarities was discarded. This was done by their son, and was a heartbreak to both of the parents.
I personally knew both of these couples, both before and after the move. They were all sharp, and in reasonably good health before the move. It seems that their children find a way to get two doctors to sign that the parent(s) are incompetent, and a court to declare the children legal guardians. In such capacity, they are then able to sell the parents' home, and have them moved to a facility that the parents have no opportunity to choose. I'm finding this both distressing and hard to believe, yet it happened.
Am I missing something here? Have any of you ever witnessed this type of thing? How does one protect oneself?
We have a daughter who would do that if she could.
Last month she suggested to her sister that we should just deed our two rental properties over to them so that they could buy a condo at the beach. She had it all worked out in her mind that it would actually be better for us in various ways.
The rental properties are paid for and have been rented out steadily for many years. Income from rentals is a part of our retirement.
But we know all about our daughter and protect ourselves from her. She has not the slightest clue that we know about her.
We're 70 and she's 50. Things are going to get tougher in coming years, but we know that; we're ready. No one is getting Power of Attorney, and that seems to be key.
Our wills leave her a stipend equal to her social security. It cannot be changed to lump sum payment.
LOL! Six months ago she called in tears in desperate need of $2,000 to bail her son out of jail. Last month they bought a new $55,000 pickup truck. It replaced the 2 year old Jeep they were tired of.
There is no end to her nonsense.
I wish the OP would ask his friends how their families were so easily able to send to their parents to the nursing home/senior community without their knowledge. Then come please back and report to us exactly how it was done.
My eighty year old friend who lives in Portland has to constantly fly back to California where her 92 year old sister lives because her sister suffers from some kind of dementia and gets to the point where she can't really take care of herself. There is a social worker who tries to help her but the sister is stubborn and fights her. So my friend has to take the trip to California to calm her sister down and try to persuade her to do what she is supposed to do.
They have been trying to persuade the sister in California for a couple of years now to go into an assisted care facility but she refuses. She is in an apartment where the social and health care worker looks in on her but she should be in a safer environment. Still, no one can force her to move. My friend can't do anything without her consent. She certainly cannot just drop her off at a facility and tell her that's where she will live. So my neighbor has to shuttle back and forth to California when things get particularly bad.
There just has to be more to this story.
It must vary by state. I recently gave up being health care proxy for my cousin here in MA. She wants to die at home and never go to a nursing home. (She would be deemed safe in her home if she would allow someone to come in and help her once a day.) All it would take is for her to be declared unsafe in her own home and she'd be forced into a nursing home.
This past spring I was able to keep her in her own home but it was extremely difficult. Her doctor told me she had to be in a nursing home. I called all her doctors, social workers, nurses, everyone who had been taking care of her since she came out of her last nursing home rehab. I worked with an eldercare advocate and we had meetings with my cousin in her home.
Finally I found out that there was one medication that was making my cousin very forgetful. When they took her off that, she was able to act fairly normal and the doctor didn't force her into a nursing home.
Then I got the paranoia treatment from my cousin--that I had "interfered" and had "gone behind my back."
So I told her to take me off the health care proxy and that I never have cared whether I am in her will or not. She said, "So you can't be bought?" I said that is right. I care about YOU, not your money.
Now she's back in short term rehab again. She was doing crazy things and she calls 911 all the time in the middle of the night to get an ambulance for silly things like having poison ivy. This time she was lying on the ground in someone's yard, curled up in a fetal position, screaming. The neighbors got her home but the next day she insisted on calling an ambulance--that landed her in the hospital and a short term nursing home.
The nursing home people told me she'll get sent home again and she will have a team of caregivers again. Then, if she won't allow anyone to come in and help her, she'll get sent to a nursing home for the rest of her life.
I know she won't allow anyone to come in and help her after the team of caregivers leaves. I went through this with her before. She fires them. She says she'll just take care of herself and no one can tell her what to do.
Well, she is 100% wrong. As soon as she is on her own again, she'll start doing crazy things. Anyway, she is supposed to use her walker or wheelchair so there is the physical component, there is the mental component too. She won't cook and just eats yogurt. So I hate to see it happen but she won't listen to me about hiring someone to come and help her once a day so the next time she calls 911 or does something crazy she will be gone. Gone forever from her home, her garden, her beloved cats, her possessions, all of it. I imagine the nursing home will take everything. The elder care agent who helped me with my cousin the first time said that she will never be able to get out of the nursing home. (Actually, she said she had a client who was trying to get out but it would cost many thousands of dollars in court fees and would be extremely difficult.)
I don't live close enough to be of much help except by phone. Even if I lived next door, she has "rules" and won't listen to anyone and will kick you right out of the house if she feels like it. Someone in this thread said, "Beware of paranoia. It's ugly." That's how I feel. I am hurt and angry. I was only trying to help her to stay in her own home and now she is telling the nurses in the temporary nursing home bad things about her cousin (me.) It's heartbreaking for me, knowing what is going to happen to her. Her home and pets are everything to her and just because she won't let anyone in to help her, she is going to lose them all and be forced into a nursing home. It's hard work to keep a person OUT of a nursing home in this state. (sorry this was so long but that's how upsetting it's been.)
Wow - this is an extremely disturbing, horrific, and informative thread. These stories are both sad & sickening. I am disgusted how some adult children take advantage of & mistreat their elderly, infirm parents - this is unconsionable. People that do this are sub-human.
I'm not close to retirement age yet (40's), and am glad I don't have any children. I will never sign my rights over to another person, ever.
After reading some of these comments, I am noticing how some of you are feeling guilty, that you only wanted to help, etc.
I believe you. I know you are trying to help.
But when our loved ones get to this stage of accusing us of trying to hurt them, please do not take it personally. Try to remember they are mentally impaired and would not say those things if they were mentally healthy. You are doing your best to take care of them and I know how difficult it can be.
Sometimes the nursing home is for the best.
It's a mistake to put your own health at risk by trying to help someone who doesn't want it.
And I am speechless about the adult children trying to hoodwink their parents. Do everything you can to protect yourself from them. You got to where you are through your own hard work. Make sure you get to enjoy the fruits of your own labor.
I'll shorten the story.
My mother was mental ill, and cruel and negligent as a result.
I was the only one who was able to maintain a relationship.
She ran out of money at the age of 85. No assets at all.
We moved her into a property that we own.
Dementia set in. She would not go to a facility of any sort. She was in danger of hurting herself.
I contacted local behavioral disorders hospital. They said they could possibly grab her if I could get her to the hospital.
So I lied to her. I told her I would move her to Ireland (?) if a doctor at the hospital OK'd it. (Don't laugh! It's what she said she wanted)
They grabbed her. She could not answer basic cognitive measuring questions. Held her at the hospital and placed her on some serious medication until she settled down.
Then we transported her to an assisted care facility.
She stayed there 4 years until she died and the age of 94.
I am actually quite proud of how I handled everything. Kudos to the Social Security Administration for bending a rule for her, and Mississippi Medicaid for scrambling to support her when they realized how serious her condition was.
The whole episode has made me more tolerant of others and their various afflictions.
But I have about zero tolerance for off-spring who take advantage of their aging parents.
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