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You seem to have ignored the past 60 years. Hart's is there because of hype. Let's see what it's like in 10 years when it's an empty lot. History, much?
I believe in both of your arguments ironically. There needs to be a boardwalk with retail space to make that ugly joke of an attraction worth itself in tourist dollars. The parking lot sits empty most of the time, but I don't believe filling it with senior living and boat docking is going to change the scheme of things. Seniors don't spend money as much as the key demographic. Honestly, the highrises should be built 300 yards from the port and cater to the 24-36 crowd. Then you'll get the retail stimulation you speak of. Putting it back further and optioning some for low-income housing is pointless. I'm still in that same demographic range and I don't want to live near low-income folks. Most people I know wouldn't want to either. One nice thing: Rochester doesn't need to worry about travel time to anywhere; that's a huge benefit.
I agree that the park seems to be a cesspool and has been even before I moved. It's like Trenton NJ Beach. Like I've said a thousand times, put more attractions there that would stimulate the more educated and safer crowd to make it uncool to the riff raff. Put an aquarium there.
To sum it up:
- Boardwalk with shops like Atlantic City or Myrtle Beach
- Residential development for 24-36 key disposible income demographic within desireable range
- Educational, upper class attractions
Then retail will FLOCK like bees to pollen.
It still sickens me that people have no clue what to do with the best properties in Rochester: Port of Rochester and High Falls. It has always bothered me that the people in charge of urban planning and development seem to have all been borderline retarded.
Thing is, Charlotte competes with both the waterfront suburbs and the trendy city neighborhoods. If you want a nice waterfront community, you can go to Greece, Irondequoit, or Webster. If you want the urban lifestyle, you can go to Park Avenue, the South Wedge, downtown, etc. Charlotte needs to offer something unique and that's the waterfront urban lifestyle. And yes, that means high-density residential because you need enough people living there to support amenities like dining and retail. Charlotte hasn't figured out its potential to be unique.
Firs thing that's got to go is those big, empty parking lots. Parking lots that vast belong at a Wal-Mart supercenter in Henrietta, not in an urban neighborhood. If you're one of those parking fetishists, please move to one of the suburbs mentioned above. You can get both your lake and your car dependency.
Greece is not a waterfront community. Neither is Irondequoit, Webster, or any other suburban area around here really. 99% of the waterfront property in the local suburbs around here are privately owned by a very, very, very small lucky segment of the population. The only places I can get to with ease to enjoy the lake is Charlotte and Durand, and Hamlin if I want to drive a half hour.
I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this. Charlotte has made it very clear they don't want any of this. They want to maintain their small village feel. All of you people here clamor on and on about how awesome the other villages are around here (Pittsford, Fairport, Victor, Canandaigua, etc) and how it'd be such a shame for developers to come in and ruin that. But yet, oddly enough, it's ok for this to happen to Charlotte? What makes them so different?
I'm not proclaiming to be one. I am agreeing with what the experts are proposing. Not saying they are clueless. There's a clear difference. Spouting off on a message board that a developer, who has done this before, doesn't know what they are doing is clearly misguided and a waste of time. Maybe the project isn't personally your favorite. That's fine. This proposal isn't for everyone. But the minute someone starts acting like they know more than the professionals is when all credibility is lost. And I'm not saying developers 100% hit on all their projects, but I'm willing to listen to them more so than some guy on the Internet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rorytmeadows
You seem to have ignored the past 60 years. Hart's is there because of hype. Let's see what it's like in 10 years when it's an empty lot. History, much?
Hart's is NOT there because of hype. Hart's exists because people have been moving back to downtown over the last 5 years and the population was finally large enough to support a grocery store. That's a fact. The owner of Hart's did not invest all this money and take all this risk over "hype". This goes back to the previous point. Stop acting like these developers and business people are stupid. They are not. They have spent months (maybe even years) researching these business ventures.
And furthermore, downtown will likely be able to support 2 grocery stores within a couple years as another 1,000 or so people move into the Midtown and surrounding areas. That's how it works. People come, retail follows.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rorytmeadows
I believe in both of your arguments ironically. There needs to be a boardwalk with retail space to make that ugly joke of an attraction worth itself in tourist dollars. The parking lot sits empty most of the time, but I don't believe filling it with senior living and boat docking is going to change the scheme of things. Seniors don't spend money as much as the key demographic. Honestly, the highrises should be built 300 yards from the port and cater to the 24-36 crowd. Then you'll get the retail stimulation you speak of. Putting it back further and optioning some for low-income housing is pointless. I'm still in that same demographic range and I don't want to live near low-income folks. Most people I know wouldn't want to either. One nice thing: Rochester doesn't need to worry about travel time to anywhere; that's a huge benefit.
They're not just targeting senior citizens. But some wouldn't be bad. They have money and care about the area they live in. So that would help. Also, I can't see people in their 20's buying condos on the water. That's not going to happen. 30-55 should really be the target demographic.
Also, there's no low income housing in this proposal at all. This is a myth that people keep believing in for some reason. It's market rate housing, if anything, and that would just be your regular middle class folk. The developers, and the city, have said over and over that there is no low income housing in this proposal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rorytmeadows
I agree that the park seems to be a cesspool and has been even before I moved. It's like Trenton NJ Beach. Like I've said a thousand times, put more attractions there that would stimulate the more educated and safer crowd to make it uncool to the riff raff. Put an aquarium there.
There's no reason to exaggerate. Charlotte is not a cesspool. I go there often in the summer. You walk around the park/beach/pier on a summer weeknight and you see families and couples walking around or you'll see a crowd in their lawn chairs for a concert. There is an element of scum that show up a few times a summer to start fights. That needs to end immediately and the city needs to do something about it. But the vast majority of time it's a nice place to go for the night or day.
But again, this proposal will eliminate said scum. You put in a large amount of middle class and above people living/playing/working in an area and it will disappear.
Greece is not a waterfront community. Neither is Irondequoit, Webster, or any other suburban area around here really. 99% of the waterfront property in the local suburbs around here are privately owned by a very, very, very small lucky segment of the population. The only places I can get to with ease to enjoy the lake is Charlotte and Durand, and Hamlin if I want to drive a half hour.
I don't understand what's so hard to understand about this. Charlotte has made it very clear they don't want any of this. They want to maintain their small village feel. All of you people here clamor on and on about how awesome the other villages are around here (Pittsford, Fairport, Victor, Canandaigua, etc) and how it'd be such a shame for developers to come in and ruin that. But yet, oddly enough, it's ok for this to happen to Charlotte? What makes them so different?
Are you seriously comparing Pittsford to Charlotte? Hi, we're on Earth, what planet are you on?
Charlotte is a waterfront community that has a massive, under utilized parking lot that the city and developers intend to develop to improve the area. It's pretty simple to us folks that don't have an agenda and rail against every single thing this city does.
I'm not proclaiming to be one. I am agreeing with what the experts are proposing. Not saying they are clueless. There's a clear difference. Spouting off on a message board that a developer, who has done this before, doesn't know what they are doing is clearly misguided and a waste of time. Maybe the project isn't personally your favorite. That's fine. This proposal isn't for everyone. But the minute someone starts acting like they know more than the professionals is when all credibility is lost. And I'm not saying developers 100% hit on all their projects, but I'm willing to listen to them more so than some guy on the Internet.
Being an expert in some fields and having their opinion rejected on the same topics, I feel your automatic rejection of others opinions will be right most of the time, but not all of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by colton821
Hart's exists because people have been moving back to downtown over the last 5 years and the population was finally large enough to support a grocery store. That's a fact.
*Source needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by colton821
The owner of Hart's did not invest all this money and take all this risk over "hype". They have spent months (maybe even years) researching these business ventures.
*Source needed
Quote:
Originally Posted by colton821
They're not just targeting senior citizens. But some wouldn't be bad. They have money and care about the area they live in. So that would help. Also, I can't see people in their 20's buying condos on the water. That's not going to happen. 30-55 should really be the target demographic.
I believe the development (not the proposal, but what is already being done to the parking lot) was for senior housing (Port of Rochester Marina Project). Has this changed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by colton821
You walk around the park/beach/pier on a summer weeknight and you see families and couples walking around or you'll see a crowd in their lawn chairs for a concert. There is an element of scum that show up a few times a summer to start fights.
I have seen those things there, too. But it doesn't mean "scum" isn't present during those times outside of the fights. I have always felt safe there, but I didn't always feel like it was a beautiful place to visit. The water sure is a cesspool there.
On a side note, calm down. We all can have differing opinions but you don't have to get super defensive and in denial about things in the Rochester forum. I'm sure we all know people that enjoy living in Rochester (or at least tolerate it) that still think it's a dump...
Being an expert in some fields and having their opinion rejected on the same topics, I feel your automatic rejection of others opinions will be right most of the time, but not all of the time.
*Source needed
*Source needed
I believe the development (not the proposal, but what is already being done to the parking lot) was for senior housing (Port of Rochester Marina Project). Has this changed?
I have seen those things there, too. But it doesn't mean "scum" isn't present during those times outside of the fights. I have always felt safe there, but I didn't always feel like it was a beautiful place to visit. The water sure is a cesspool there.
On a side note, calm down. We all can have differing opinions but you don't have to get super defensive and in denial about things in the Rochester forum. I'm sure we all know people that enjoy living in Rochester (or at least tolerate it) that still think it's a dump...
I hear you on the last point, but some people are so over the top with their negative opinions about anything to do with Rochester that it becomes too much. I'm not blind to this areas problems. There are plenty of them. But I love this city, I've lived in other areas of the country (as have my brothers, who both moved back) and I appreciate this area and think it's a great place. So I'm going to counter overly negative stuff.
I hear you on the last point, but some people are so over the top with their negative opinions about anything to do with Rochester that it becomes too much. I'm not blind to this areas problems. There are plenty of them. But I love this city, I've lived in other areas of the country (as have my brothers, who both moved back) and I appreciate this area and think it's a great place. So I'm going to counter overly negative stuff.
Understandable, but I'm going to counter overly positive stuff.
Firs thing that's got to go is those big, empty parking lots. Parking lots that vast belong at a Wal-Mart supercenter in Henrietta, not in an urban neighborhood. If you're one of those parking fetishists, please move to one of the suburbs mentioned above. You can get both your lake and your car dependency.
God forbid ordinary people can go the beach and park somewhere.
This is really about taking Charlotte away from the regular folk and awarding it to whatever is the name for yuppies nowadays. And you can be sure that Rochester will totally ---- it up, like Rochester ----ed up the Ferry and Irondequoit Mall and Midtown and...
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