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A simple question I asked about individuals posting their property devolved into a war between the majority, who said that THEY paid for the land, therefore NOBODY should be on it uninvited, and a minority claiming that land ownership is really theft.
Enough with that.
What I want to ask now, is would you rather live in a rural environment where:
1) ALL land is posted and NOBODY trespasses, even when trails cross various property lines. There is a very ingrained custom of respecting absolutely the owner's sole right of access to his land.
or
2) Although land is owned by private individuals, NO land is posted, and neighbors "trespass" respectfully by mutual custom - for example, without littering, cutting down trees, going (avoidably) within view of houses, etc. People use common sense in their use of others' property. The only time when trespassing is not accepted is during deer hunting season in November. Putting up "no trespassing" signs would mark you as an unwelcome newcomer.
It used to be #2 up here in Northern Minnesota until about ten years ago. Most land surrounding my house was owned by the power company or the county, and despite being in constant use, with evidence (well-worn trails), by four-wheelers, dirt bikes, horses, they did nothing to stop it. Even individual owners did little to prevent trespassers. For example, we drove our four-wheelers and dirt bikes all the time in an awesome large gravel excavation pit. We did nothing to interfere with those who were actually excavating - and riders often chatted with the owner.
However, property changed hands and now one who obeys no trespassing signs is confined to their own property.
So, what would you rather have, #1 or #2?
(In the State of Minnesota, just because a plot of rural, non-agricultural land is privately owned does not mean it is assumed that access is prohibited; rather, the owner has to explicitly restrict access by posting "NO TRESPASSING" signs, and according to strict state regulations. Even with the "NO TRESPASSING" signs up, one has to have had prior contact with the trespasser/s to be able to press trespassing charges on them, as far as I know)
I don't post my property, because I don't have to. We are very rural, so far out that you have to know and plan where you are going to get there at all. Everyone knows who owns what, and people do not trespass without direct permission, for any reason.
However, having lived in places where "holding a running lease" was a standard joke among 4-wheelers, fishermen, crabbers, shrimpers, and hunters, I would post my property in a heartbeat if someone didn't ask and came on my property. There are just too many things to harm them - everything from large rattlesnakes and sand traps to my bull and horse - and too many ways that they could easily, even unknowingly, damage my property.
Holding a running lease, BTW, means "If the property owner shows up - start a-runnin'!" Too many people simply don't respect what someone is trying to do with their property; how much money, time, and sweat has gone into doing it - and simply don't care. They assume that the property is there for them to use any way they please, and it doesn't matter to them what effort someone else has put into either acquiring it or maintaining it.
I'm glad I don't have to post, I don't like doing it - but I simply have been exposed to enough callous and insensitive selfish people that -" neighbors "trespass" respectfully by mutual custom - for example, without littering, cutting down trees, going (avoidably) within view of houses, etc. People use common sense in their use of others' property. The only time when trespassing is not accepted is during deer hunting season in November." is, all too often, an easily destroyed pipe dream.
The problem I have with unrestricted access is that it's impossible to enforce "respectful" use of my land. And, since my livelihood is intertwined with the health of my land, one disrespectful user can cost me a significant amount of income and a significant increase in headaches.
It used to be much like #2 up here as well, but landowners had a lot of issues with people driving through pasture and ripping up grass, leaving gates open, harassing livestock, etc. Posting became a necessary precaution to protect your land from misuse.
While I generally have no issue with people being on my land, I don't feel bad for requiring some sort of reassurance that they're not going to wreck the place. Most landowners here are of the same mind as myself. There's a lot of "No hunting/access without permission signs". Generally, all it takes to gain access is a quick phone call. Even if land isn't posted, I usually call or visit anyway, as it's polite and appreciated. It's a good way to make friends, too.
Of course, there are also vast amounts of crown (public) land fairly nearby accessible to anyone, as well.
The law has changed.
Trespassing can be considered a misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor. Penalties for a first-time offense up to a $3,000,
Trespass penalties range from a $50 civil fine to a criminal penalty of several thousand dollars, confiscation of vehicles and hunting equipment, and revocation of hunting privileges for two or more years.
In MN some land does not need to be posted nor does there have to be prior contact with the trespasser to enforce the law.
No where does it say you have to make virbal contact and inform then upon first contact and then upon the 2nd contact can the law be enforced.
mn law on this subject.
According to Minnesota law, a person cannot enter “agricultural land†for outdoor recreational purposes without
first receiving permission from the landowner. “Agricultural land†is defined as any of the following lands;
• fields that are tilled;
• fields with standing crops or crop residue;
• areas within a maintained fence for enclosing domestic livestock.
.Certain trespass on agricultural land. (a) A person is guilty of a gross
misdemeanor if the person enters the posted premises of another on which cattle, bison,
sheep, goats, swine, horses, poultry, farmed cervidae, farmed ratitae, aquaculture stock, or
other species of domestic animals for commercial production are kept, without the consent
of the owner or lawful occupant of the land.
a person may not enter, for outdoor recreation purposes, any land that is posted under this
subdivision without first obtaining permission of the owner, occupant, or lessee.
(b) The owner, occupant, or lessee of private land, or an authorized manager of public land
may prohibit outdoor recreation on the land by posting signs once each year that:
(1) state "no trespassing" or similar terms;
(2) display letters at least two inches high;
(3) either:
(i) are signed by the owner, occupant, lessee, or authorized manager; or
(ii) include the legible name and telephone number of the owner, occupant, lessee, or
authorized manager; and
(4) either:
(i) are at intervals of 1,000 feet or less along the boundary of the area, or in a wooded area
where boundary lines are not clear, at intervals of 500 feet or less; or
(ii) mark the primary corners of each parcel of land and access roads and trails at the point
of entrance to each parcel of land except that corners only accessible through agricultural land
need not be posted.
That's for agricultural land, not forested land as makes up the majority of NE MN.
You need to post your property to keep people out of it, unless it's agricultural (or within the seven-county metropolitan area). Otherwise, they have no way of knowing that you do not want them on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by snofarmer
tvdxer,
The law has changed.
Trespassing can be considered a misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor. Penalties for a first-time offense up to a $3,000,
Trespass penalties range from a $50 civil fine to a criminal penalty of several thousand dollars, confiscation of vehicles and hunting equipment, and revocation of hunting privileges for two or more years.
In MN some land does not need to be posted nor does there have to be prior contact with the trespasser to enforce the law.
No where does it say you have to make virbal contact and inform then upon first contact and then upon the 2nd contact can the law be enforced.
mn law on this subject.
According to Minnesota law, a person cannot enter “agricultural land†for outdoor recreational purposes without
first receiving permission from the landowner. “Agricultural land†is defined as any of the following lands;
• fields that are tilled;
• fields with standing crops or crop residue;
• areas within a maintained fence for enclosing domestic livestock.
.Certain trespass on agricultural land. (a) A person is guilty of a gross
misdemeanor if the person enters the posted premises of another on which cattle, bison,
sheep, goats, swine, horses, poultry, farmed cervidae, farmed ratitae, aquaculture stock, or
other species of domestic animals for commercial production are kept, without the consent
of the owner or lawful occupant of the land.
a person may not enter, for outdoor recreation purposes, any land that is posted under this
subdivision without first obtaining permission of the owner, occupant, or lessee.
(b) The owner, occupant, or lessee of private land, or an authorized manager of public land
may prohibit outdoor recreation on the land by posting signs once each year that:
(1) state "no trespassing" or similar terms;
(2) display letters at least two inches high;
(3) either:
(i) are signed by the owner, occupant, lessee, or authorized manager; or
(ii) include the legible name and telephone number of the owner, occupant, lessee, or
authorized manager; and
(4) either:
(i) are at intervals of 1,000 feet or less along the boundary of the area, or in a wooded area
where boundary lines are not clear, at intervals of 500 feet or less; or
(ii) mark the primary corners of each parcel of land and access roads and trails at the point
of entrance to each parcel of land except that corners only accessible through agricultural land
need not be posted.
All I can say is that a prime blueberrying spot just became out of bounds - the company (a huge multinational) just posted a no trespassing notice regarding that land in the local newspaper.
A currently popular 'country' song bothers me, and it's along the lines of this OP.
Somethin Bout A Truck:
Quote:
Something about a truck in a farmer's field
No trespass sign, and time to kill
Nobody's gonna get hurt, so what's the big deal
Something about a truck in a farmer's field
... On that dropped tailgate, back behind the corn
Country songs are usually thought to be fairly pro-farmer. this song is decidedly anti-farmer.
He wants to drive his truck through a posted corn field, nothing gets hurt so its no big deal?
This is not respectful behavior.
A field with a crop in it is posted for a reason.
I do not grow corn. But if I did, and if you decided that you were going to drive your truck through my corn field, I am thinking that you would be discussing this all with a judge. Try to tell him that nothing gets hurt its no big deal.
What I do have is forest land. You go 'mudding' in it, and if the game warden catches you, your truck and firearms are forfeit, you go to jail and get to explain to a judge why you were muddling.
I've never lived in an area where EITHER was an option...
I've always lived where some land is posted because that's just who lives there, or it's their calving pasture or some such where they absolutely do NOT want people wandering around.
Or, it's open, but you don't wander across someone's place without permission anymore than you would wander around in someone's back yard.
It's just rude.
Our neighbors just leased out their entire place for Kansas' Walk In Hunting access program. We're talking something like 30,000 acres. And our little 40 sits in the middle. lol
So far we've had no problems (of course last year was the first year they did it, so the general public might not have discovered it yet), but I won't hesitate to put "No Trespassing" signs every 5 feet along the fenceline if we start having issues.
So my vote is #3. It's probably no big deal, but ask permission first. It's just good manners.
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