Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Educate yourself and you will see that the Arizona law is not the way to deal with illegal immigration since it will be stopped even before it was to be implemented. Arizona needs some "smart pills" since there have been several legislative actions that make the state look like a bunch of rednecks. It is becoming the joke of the nation:
You need to educate yourself. Just because someone disagrees with a law does not mean it is unconstitutional. The Justice Department is playing a risky card and they know it. That's why they have not formally announced its lawsuit yet. Arizona is getting exactly the kind of attention it wanted to bring light to all the illegal alien problems from Mexico it is having with its border.
Sacramento and all the other cities supporting this boycott tactic are the ones who need smart pills.
You need to educate yourself. Just because someone disagrees with a law does not mean it is unconstitutional. The Justice Department is playing a risky card and they know it. That's why they have not formally announced its lawsuit yet. Arizona is getting exactly the kind of attention it wanted to bring light to all the illegal alien problems from Mexico it is having with its border.
Sacramento and all the other cities supporting this boycott tactic are the ones who need smart pills.
Was it consitutional to have separate drinking fountains in the 60's and to deny service based upon skin color? Rhetorical question.
Hmmm, but now it is constitutional for a police officer to pull someone over for no other reason than the color of their skin? Same scenerio, it is discrimination based soley upon skin color. People have protested died over issues like this man.
What exactly does the color of your skin have to do with being here illegally? I have a friend that came here from Scotland and lived here illegally for 14 years. So no bells go off in your head that say, "what if a latino owner of a restaurant get's pulled over, what if a latino doctor gets pulled over, or what if in the future I get pulled over".
The first time a latino lawyer gets pulled over and questioned, watch and learn about the consitution my friend. If anyone needs the smart pills, it's Arizona. The law should be written that if anyone participates or is questioned for involvement in illegal activity, then they may be forced to prove their citizenship.
As it is now, they are trampling on civil liberties, and like I said, it should concern you because if you are white like me, it won't be long before WE are the minorities, and WE are the ones that could be harrassed by the police.
If you think that is too far fetched, consider that in just 50 years we have gone from being a country that would not even allow a black man to play professional baseball, to a country that elected a black president.
Was it consitutional to have separate drinking fountains in the 60's and to deny service based upon skin color? Rhetorical question.
Hmmm, but now it is constitutional for a police officer to pull someone over for no other reason than the color of their skin? Same scenerio, it is discrimination based soley upon skin color. People have protested died over issues like this man.
What exactly does the color of your skin have to do with being here illegally? I have a friend that came here from Scotland and lived here illegally for 14 years. So no bells go off in your head that say, "what if a latino owner of a restaurant get's pulled over, what if a latino doctor gets pulled over, or what if in the future I get pulled over".
The first time a latino lawyer gets pulled over and questioned, watch and learn about the consitution my friend. If anyone needs the smart pills, it's Arizona. The law should be written that if anyone participates or is questioned for involvement in illegal activity, then they may be forced to prove their citizenship.
As it is now, they are trampling on civil liberties, and like I said, it should concern you because if you are white like me, it won't be long before WE are the minorities, and WE are the ones that could be harrassed by the police.
If you think that is too far fetched, consider that in just 50 years we have gone from being a country that would not even allow a black man to play professional baseball, to a country that elected a black president.
I come from a long line of Law Enforcement Officers past and present
This Law gives them no more power to pull you over because of the color of your skin than they have now. Have you even read the Law? Federal Law enforcenment officials have had the power this Law provides to State enforcement officals for years.
What Civil Liberties of yours are they trampling on? Give me a list.
I am a second generation American. My Dad's Dad came from Mexico on a work visa for the railroads, signed up and fought in WWII and was granted citizenship because of his service. My Moms Granddad came from Italy through Ellis Island and fought in WWI. I think I know a little about the sacrifice of minorities.
We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Illegal is illegal. I will not disgrace the memory or the sacrifice my family has made to play by the rules for individuals who broke the laws my family has spilled blood to uphold.
Black people were not here illegally. I am a firm believer in equal rights for all legal American citizens. If you are illegally here you have the right to leave and that's it. I had several family members from Mexico that had to wait many years to legally be admitted to this country. Many others never were able to become citizens and only traveled here for visits.
Simple question that I'll get to, and because I work with federal law literally every day, analyzing it, reading it, and applying it, I know there is no point in arguing what can and cannot be done by strictly as a matter of law. Technically, there is an application or situation for which almost any law can be applied. It is up to the judical process (courts) to ultimately determine whether the law has been correctly applied in a case by case basis.
For example, a police officer can pull me over tonight under any potential violation of any number of laws, regardless of whether I have violated that law or not. My recourse would be to file a civil suit against the city, and allow the courts to determine whether the law was correctly applied and a violation actually occured. In my opinion, that about sums up your "Federal officials have had this power for years" comment. Technically, any police officer has the power to do anything he wants under the law.
So, my simpler question is this, and I am not at all attempting to be sarcastic: What logic do you use to justify a corporation employing someone that is not a citizen of this country? This is after all, all about business and cheap labor. So, they can work here, but cannot they cannot receive government "hand outs"?
That's the perplexing part of this argument to me, and always has been. I've worked at so many jobs through college where a large portion of the staff was here illegally, from hotels, to restaurants, to construction. I always wondered, "why doesn't someone inform the federal government that these people are not here legally, why aren't they being deported?" It wasn't until I got older and understood how business, law, and government all work in tandem that I understood why those people were never bothered.
People take this high and mighty stand and say, "so and so did x, y, and z for this country", which is a legitimate point. But I have to tell you, I haven't met a whole lot of "lazy" immigrants. I've encountered far more that work 2 or 3 jobs, 16 hour days and bust their tail to make someone else a whole lot of money. Whether you believe working people are entitled to some form of government assistance is a whole nother argument (I believe the middle class supports the entire economy and keeps it afloat, so we SHOULD be entitled to some form of benefits for allowing directors and CEO's to prosper in the country whose economy we keep above water), but I guess you are right, we will have to agree to disagree.
LOL and you are the "sane" one with a name like "Bulldogdad" "psycho-billy"?? Everyone else is a freak. OK.
Look, bottom line, conservatives love to pound their fists about illegal immigrants. But why are they even here in the first place? Oh, that's right. Businesses employ them. Big business. The same big businesses that conservatives are always favoring, supporting tax breaks and incentives to help them grow and "create more jobs".
When I waited tables half of the entire kitchen and the maintenance staff were all here illegally, and a well known corporation that I will not name employed them. There's the beauty of "free market" capitalism at work for you.
If these businesses would not employ illegal immigrants they'd not be here in the first place. And as for Sacramentos' boycott? I think it's beautiful. What did you expect in a city with no ratial majority, is this a shock or something?
And why do I think it's beautiful?? Because in about 30 years, white people could be the minority in this country, and when that happens, when I'm a minority, I sure as hell don't want to be pulled over, questioned, and forced to produce papers.
Be careful with lumping all conservatives (or liberals) into a generalization. I consider myself a fiscal conservative, but I can be somewhat liberal on some social issues, and even a few fiscal issues, such as funding education and public transit. The "conservatives" you are talking about are conservative when it is convenient for them. As far as the free market and capitalism working or not working, well, hiring illegal aliens is, well, illegal. At this point it becomes corruption. Unfortunately, corruption is a problem with any type of market system. Arizona's law is the result of years of frustration over looking the other way when it comes to enforcing immigration laws. Both the Republicans and the Democrats are pandering to this group of people in order to gain votes. Furthermore, big business wants cheap labour and when it comes to lobbying, both big business and and a variety of organizations which have made a business out of pandering to the legal issues around illegal immigrants, are very influential factors. So, we have a mentality that screams "racist bigots" anytime anything is attempted to do something about the problem, be it deporting Mexican drug dealers, cracking down on employers hiring illegal aliens, or anything else. The bottom line is illegal immigrants are here illegally, they know they are in the wrong, and they don't like being told so. Really, if these people spent as much time and effort trying to influence Mexico in some positive way as they do insisting they have the right to come here freely, go to our emergency rooms, make the US taxpayers educate their children, and vote in US elections, Mexico would be a very different country today.
Simple question that I'll get to, and because I work with federal law literally every day, analyzing it, reading it, and applying it, I know there is no point in arguing what can and cannot be done by strictly as a matter of law. Technically, there is an application or situation for which almost any law can be applied. It is up to the judical process (courts) to ultimately determine whether the law has been correctly applied in a case by case basis.
For example, a police officer can pull me over tonight under any potential violation of any number of laws, regardless of whether I have violated that law or not. My recourse would be to file a civil suit against the city, and allow the courts to determine whether the law was correctly applied and a violation actually occurred. In my opinion, that about sums up your "Federal officials have had this power for years" comment. Technically, any police officer has the power to do anything he wants under the law.
So, my simpler question is this, and I am not at all attempting to be sarcastic: What logic do you use to justify a corporation employing someone that is not a citizen of this country? This is after all, all about business and cheap labor. So, they can work here, but cannot they cannot receive government "hand outs"?
That's the perplexing part of this argument to me, and always has been. I've worked at so many jobs through college where a large portion of the staff was here illegally, from hotels, to restaurants, to construction. I always wondered, "why doesn't someone inform the federal government that these people are not here legally, why aren't they being deported?" It wasn't until I got older and understood how business, law, and government all work in tandem that I understood why those people were never bothered.
People take this high and mighty stand and say, "so and so did x, y, and z for this country", which is a legitimate point. But I have to tell you, I haven't met a whole lot of "lazy" immigrants. I've encountered far more that work 2 or 3 jobs, 16 hour days and bust their tail to make someone else a whole lot of money. Whether you believe working people are entitled to some form of government assistance is a whole nother argument (I believe the middle class supports the entire economy and keeps it afloat, so we SHOULD be entitled to some form of benefits for allowing directors and CEO's to prosper in the country whose economy we keep above water), but I guess you are right, we will have to agree to disagree.
I don't feel what certain members of my family did was high and mighty. Its was extraordinarily high and mighty
I agree our immigration system is a POS when it comes to providing legal methods for employers to higher legitimate foreign workers who will work their butts off for minimum wage jobs. Being a business owner I understand all the complexities of the I-9 documentation process and the ease of abuse to allow illegals to work. I have been audited twice by the Department of Home Land Security and EDD because of grievance complaints by former employees that were fired once I found out their I-9 documentation were false. I received no penalties and was praised for my due diligence in maintaining spotless records.
The problem is the horribly run immigration system which includes the security of our borders. Arizona was the only state with the guts to stand up to the FEDS and say if you wont fix this horrible problem WE will try. Thats why these boycotts are a bunch of crap in my opinion.
All this crying of racism and racial profiling is BS. I truely hope Arizona's Law stands as the Bold Stroke that cuts the Gordian Knot of immigration.
That is such a distortion. Republicans like to find all kinds of excuses why a certain voting group doesn't pick them. The fact that for the most part Latinos are fairly conservative [Catholic\ pro-family\ traditional] should make them good prospects for the GOP. But minorities in general do not trust the Republican party and why they vote Democratic. It really is a shame that Republicans can't understand that they tend to shrink their party the more the go after "ethnics." Arizona will learn the hard way when all those Latinos who make up over 30% of the population get registered to vote and exercise their American right to vote out Republicans. This happened in California 20 years ago and this will happen in Arizona in probably one of two more elections.
Latinos believe the lies about Republicans being racist (this isn't saying there aren't any bad apples, but not true for the most part). They also know they will be less likely to get various government handouts from Republicans. So they vote for Democrats.
Unfortunately, there's a "just do enough to get by" mentality that prevails in most Latin American countries. As a reult of corruption that makes the US look squeaky clean by comparison (hard to imagine, I know, but true), there is a very casual attitude about the law in those countries. So many who come here don't really get (or don't wanna get) the difference in importance between "legal" and "illegal".
It's time for Latin Americans to march in the streets of their own respective countries (instead of here in the US) and stop expecting the US to solve their problems.
I come from a long line of Law Enforcement Officers past and present
This Law gives them no more power to pull you over because of the color of your skin than they have now. Have you even read the Law? Federal Law enforcenment officials have had the power this Law provides to State enforcement officals for years.
. If you are illegally here you have the right to leave and that's it. I had several family members from Mexico that had to wait many years to legally be admitted to this country. Many others never were able to become citizens and only traveled here for visits.
Actually this is not about pulling you over. This is about forcing you to carry certain documents at all times, because the officer can throw you in jail, if you don't. Now if this was practiced on all citizens, that is one thing. But the officer has discretion wether to ask anyone he stops. He is not going to ask someone who doesn't fit the profile of the majority of illegals in that area. So the majority can be safe-not us, only them. It is the same with the govt actions in many country where only a minority are affected-the majority can feel safe that this will not affect them and so go on. But if you let this continue, history is replete with cases where this has snowballed and affects everybody.
Yes some folks immediate response will be have you read the law. yes I have . It clearly gives the officer the power to thow me in jail because he may suspect me of a "crime". I have not done a crime. I am a citizen. Every other state in the union, I only have to carry my driver license as id-even then only when driving. In this state alone, for all practical purposes, I have to study what documents are sufficient to travel there and also carry it at all times with the threat of being thrown in jail. Yes , yes reasonable suspicion and I have to be stopped for something(which was added later)-but what exactly is that? That can vary so widely. Maybe my car looks like a stolen vehicle and as per a congressman my shoes look crabby and hey presto I am now in jail. Another congressman said police can use their psychic powers-much as taxi drivers do to find a potential customer-to find if a person can be thrown in jail or not.
See people flock to this country not only for the economic conditions, but for the freedoms. That is why even though I have visited China many times and extremely impressed by their development, I will never consider living there. This is one of very few countries in the world where you can speak your mind, call the President an idiot and not be worried about the consequences-well as in being thrown in jail or some such.
Why would we wan't to give that up. It is so funny, I would think conservatives of the small govt stripe would be the first to be appalled by this law and be up in arms. There is due process. This is America and I am talking about citizens. Anger about illegals may blind you to this folly, but there are other ways to deal with that. like go after the employers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger
Latinos believe the lies about Republicans being racist (this isn't saying there aren't any bad apples, but not true for the most part). They also know they will be less likely to get various government handouts from Republicans. So they vote for Democrats.
Unfortunately, there's a "just do enough to get by" mentality that prevails in most Latin American countries. .
You haven't been to Brazil? Mexico itself is a trillion dollar economy. Not much when compared to us, but sub-saharan africa it ain't. Argentina itself used to be a very rich country at the turn of the last century.
Latins are not one homogenous mass either. I have worked in corporations all my life and know several latinas of all stripes who have worked their way up to very senior positions in mgmt. So really latinos are not some dumb "sheeple" who just believe the democratic "lies"-whatever that is supposed to be. Most that I have met are hard warking, very sincere and wan't to get ahead.
One can be against illegal immigration without having to demonize them or having to resort to such laws that strip away at our very fabric. Look at that recent raid in AZ at Sizzler's . They arrested a bunch of Mexican looking folks -some might have been legal. But did they arrest a bunch of folks who are the owners or might have looked like the owners or mgmt. Why not? Both broke the law..
Latins are not one homogenous mass either. I have worked in corporations all my life and know several latinas of all stripes who have worked their way up to very senior positions in mgmt. So really latinos are not some dumb "sheeple" who just believe the democratic "lies"-whatever that is supposed to be. Most that I have met are hard warking, very sincere and wan't to get ahead
I, too, worked with many, legal latinos and latinas in government and most were well-educated, hard working and motivated to succeed. My last boss, for whom I worked the final 12 years of my career was one of them and the hardest worker I ever met with the strongest work ethic I've ever encountered. We were truly partners and made an awesome team in which he was the chief and I was the manager.
BUT, in every case, a slight scratch below the surface showed that while this country was loved and appreciated by them for the opportunities it provided, when push-came-to-shove, La Raza came out at least even, if not ahead.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
