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Stop and think about it... If you were quite good friends with more than a hundred people within an area of just a few square blocks of your house, if your needs were being met by this wide circle of people you knew you had a lot in common with, how much effort would you put into getting to know someone who was new in your neighborhood and was not part of that group? Probably not as much effort as you should. We plead guilty. We may not have a good excuse, but it's not that we're going out of our way to shun you.
This actually makes me feel quite sad. I moved into my neighborhood a year and a half ago, and my neighbors are really friendly and welcoming, but I miss having close female friendships, and aside from one person (non LDS) who just moved, have not become close to anyone. I get it that people are busy (I am busy too!), and very few people actively shun non members.
But I guess if I had 100 built in "friends", I have been the new person often enough that I know how much it can suck, and how lonely and isolating it can feel to be the new person, so even though I had "enough" friends already, I think I would still want to extend a branch of friendship, and maybe could meet a cool new friend. I am members of all of the neighborhood and ward FB groups to stay up to date on neighborhood activities, and they make a big deal about new people coming into the ward and how all should welcome them and make them feel welcomed. I guess I just feel that it can be done for non-members too (though its not).
I understand where you are coming from, but whether someone is actively rejecting you solely based on not sharing the faith, or just not willing to make an effort to get to know someone new and strike up a friendship because you already have enough friends. It still feels isolating and like rejection.
After-all, we all are humans who want and crave friendships.
The weather, OTOH, has not been as advertised since I moved here two years ago: it's supposed to be in the low 70s all month; right now it's bright sunshine and 87, and it's expected to be in the high 90s most of next week. The normal rainfall for the month is 1.25"; the actual total to date is 0.16"; the forests are the driest the state forestry chiefs have seen in 30 years.
Are you really complaining about the weather? It's been perfect from Oct '14 up until 10 days ago. The winter was warm and sunny with not sure a bad inversion. The spring was beautiful and it rained hard for 3 weeks straight starting in mid-may.
Are you really complaining about the weather? It's been perfect from Oct '14 up until 10 days ago. The winter was warm and sunny with not sure a bad inversion. The spring was beautiful and it rained hard for 3 weeks straight starting in mid-may.
I think she's talking about NW Washington State, where they're experiencing a rather legendary drought.
As for our weather, our winter was terrible. We need those snow storms. It's how we get water for the summer. Without it we don't recharge. We get what we start with and that's it. The snow gives us continuing water recharge for the hot months, but the spring was certainly good for us. It filled most of our reservoirs, unfortunately without that snow-recharge, we'll be in heavy drought by August.
This actually makes me feel quite sad. I moved into my neighborhood a year and a half ago, and my neighbors are really friendly and welcoming, but I miss having close female friendships, and aside from one person (non LDS) who just moved, have not become close to anyone. I get it that people are busy (I am busy too!), and very few people actively shun non members.
But I guess if I had 100 built in "friends", I have been the new person often enough that I know how much it can suck, and how lonely and isolating it can feel to be the new person, so even though I had "enough" friends already, I think I would still want to extend a branch of friendship, and maybe could meet a cool new friend. I am members of all of the neighborhood and ward FB groups to stay up to date on neighborhood activities, and they make a big deal about new people coming into the ward and how all should welcome them and make them feel welcomed. I guess I just feel that it can be done for non-members too (though its not).
I understand where you are coming from, but whether someone is actively rejecting you solely based on not sharing the faith, or just not willing to make an effort to get to know someone new and strike up a friendship because you already have enough friends. It still feels isolating and like rejection.
After-all, we all are humans who want and crave friendships.
I completely agree. It is sad, and I think all it really takes to change things is for people to have been in the situation you have described themselves to realize how it feels. Mormons know that wherever they move in the Salt Lake City area, they are fairly likely to make new friends quickly. They just don't stop to think about how it is for people who won't have an immediate "ward family."
But just to be clear, it's not always about religion. About 33 years ago, my husband and I, along with our 2-year-old son, moved from a condo in Murray to a home in the Harvard-Yale area. We had always wanted to live there -- loved the tree-lined streets and the old Tudor homes. Well, we were there for exactly 6 months before we sold the house at a loss and moved to where we are now (Cottonwood Heights). We simply couldn't hack the unfriendliness of the neighborhood for another minute. It wasn't about religion, either. We are LDS. I've told this story before, so I apologize for telling it again, but... We'd been in the house for a couple of months. The ward was going to have a Christmas party and they announced in church that they needed men to help set up tables and chairs for the dinner. My husband went over to the church on the afternoon of the party to help. He was over there for about an hour and a half. When he came home, he told me that not one person had even spoken to him, except to give him his orders as to where to set up the tables. Everybody was being friendly to each other -- just not to him. If we were non-LDS, we might have assumed the unfriendliness to be because of our religion. In this case, I think we just stumbled onto the snootiest bunch of people in the city.
There are just a couple of other things I'd like to point out. I never ask newcomers to my neighborhood if they're LDS or not. I actually wouldn't even think of it. But I think some people probably do, just as a way of looking for common ground and for no other reason. If they ask, "Are you LDS?" and you say, "Yes," there's one thing you have in common. It's a starting point for a friendship to develop. If you say, "No," don't assume that the person asking the question is going to use that information as an excuse to not be friendly in the future. In any area where so many people have one thing in common, it's really pretty easy to use that one thing as a conversation starter. The problem is that when the answer is, "No," a lot of LDS people don't know what to say next. Since they already asked, "Are you LDS?", a "No" answer may lead them to say, "Oh, well what are you then?" Since it's a question that's not typically asked in areas where one religion is predominant, it is likely to offend and maybe even to be misunderstood.
That brings me to my final point. Sometimes LDS people are afraid, too. They want to be friendly with newcomers, but since newcomers have been told that we'll only be friends with our non-LDS neighbors if we think we're likely to be able to convert them. That's simply not the case. Obviously, there are people who are like that, but most of us really aren't. I know I've been concerned that if I put myself out to be extra friendly to any new neighbor, I will be seen as having an ulterior motive, that I just don't have. I approach new neighbors cautiously and try to give them more space than they maybe even want, simply because I don't want them to think I am looking at them as potential converts. We may eventually become good friends, but it might take time.
I think it's considerably more involved than that. Of course, the situation differs from one neighborhood to the next, but there are a few commonalities that probably apply most of the time. I honestly don't believe that LDS folks are "rejecting on non-LDS newcomers." Maybe it's time to bump my old thread, "The lowdown on us Mormons." I'll have to do that when I finish with this post. Meanwhile, I'm just going to copy one post of mine from that thread here. It said:
1. Mormonism is probably one of the few, if not the only, Christian denomination where no matter where you live, your street address determines where you will attend church each Sunday. You're free to attend an LDS church on the other side of town, and you'll be welcomed there -- but always (even if you go there every week) as a "visitor." Your "home ward" is where your "ward family" resides. You see these people three hours every Sunday and associate with them at church functions throughout the week. You know their kids because you teach them in Sunday School and chauffeur them around to church-sponsored activities. If you're a woman, two women in your ward are assigned to drop in and visit with you every month, to pick your kids up after school in a pinch and to bring in a casserole to feed your family when you're under the weather. Whether you're a man or a woman, you will also have two men in your ward visit you on a monthly basis, to check on how you're doing and to pass any information you may ask them to on to your bishop (if you lost your job, for instance, or were going into the hospital for some surgery). Stop and think about it... If you were quite good friends with more than a hundred people within an area of just a few square blocks of your house, if your needs were being met by this wide circle of people you knew you had a lot in common with, how much effort would you put into getting to know someone who was new in your neighborhood and was not part of that group? Probably not as much effort as you should. We plead guilty. We may not have a good excuse, but it's not that we're going out of our way to shun you.
2. Mormons have a health code (the Word of Wisdom) that seems to interfere with our getting to know our non-Mormon neighbors a lot more than it should. Our non-Mormon neighbors would love to have us over for coffee, but they have heard that we're going to be offended by the gesture. Those who haven't done their homework may actually make the faux pas of inviting us over some evening "for a few drinks." There are, unfortunately, a sizable number of Mormons who would see that as meaning "a drunken brawl." Others among us are nowhere near that uptight about people social drinking. It's just something we don't do, and those of us who have spent our entire lives in the Church (and especially here in Mormon country, where we have plenty of friends who don't drink either) sometimes do make unfair assumptions about what "a couple of beers" really means. I know a lot of Mormons who would not want to go out to dinner with a couple that intends to have a glass of wine with their meal. I know a lot of Mormons who wouldn't give it a second thought. If possible, get to know your LDS neighbors in a setting that wouldn't involve alcohol before you invite them to a dinner where alcohol is served. It's silly, I know, that it should be such an issue, but if you want to get to know them, a little bit of respect for their beliefs will go along way. It probably won't take too awfully long before your having a glass of wine or them having a 7-up won't change the way in which you relate to each other.
3. Keep in mind that for us, the fun part of the weekend is only one day long. As much as we'd like to go to a movie or a football game or Lagoon with you, we would be very unlikely to agree to go with you on a Sunday. (We might watch the same movie or football game at home on TV, though. Don't ask me to explain that one.) We limit our shopping to the extent possible to the other six days of the week, and you won't find us out mowing our lawns or washing our cars on Sunday either. Some Mormons insist that their kids stay home with their families on Sunday when they're not in Church. This isn't Church policy, but I know a lot of families that feel that way. So, that means that even though they are happy to have their kids play with yours the other six days of the week, they may not be able to continue Saturday's activity on Sunday. That would include Saturday night sleepovers. Mondays are reserved for Family Home Evening, or at least they're supposed to be. A lot of LDS families won't let their kids do anything with friends on Monday night because they're going to be spending the evening with their own brothers and sisters. Couples whose kids are grown and out of the house are generally a lot less likely to be sticklers for Family Home Evenings. Finally, if you want to ask your LDS neighbors to go to a movie with you, keep in mind that many of them do not watch R-rated movies. Again, others do. You just need to get to know them and not take anything for granted.
A lot of this is true although I am talking about social meetings with parents during the holidays which doesn't involve a Saturday or weekends and you are right, some wont let their kids play out front but you do hear them out back. I think like any religion if you attend the place of worship then you worry more about what people think than why you are actually doing it. My kids knocked for neighbours kids on a Sunday as were not sure if LDS or not or how religious as they were playing in the garden. Their mum was nice as pie and said sorry they are not allowed to play out on Sunday which is silly but its a rule we follow to which my kids responded "no that's fine, that's what you believe then we will call back another day its not a problem" neither side offended. I think the alcohol thing a fallacy too, a lot of people do drink or have no problem with othrs doing so even if they don't and we have LDS friends who are happy to hang out whether we drink or not and we couldn't care if they sdont as we are there for their company.You get hardcore in every religion and those who stick to stuff and those who don't its called life!I really didn't know about the Monday thing Katzpur so thanks for that.I find sporting activities and sheer numbers of children to run around gets in the way f things far more than religion sometimes lol! We have only done kids movies so far open air and everyone enjoyed Paddington bear on Friday night in Sandy!Lastly I think the fear is on both sides, yes LDS as they worry they come across as being preachy because that's what people expect and on the other side people think LDS people will not be friendly, make time for them or want to mix with them or worse that thy will have to change their behaviour and pretend to be something they are not. This is because of the whole situation being overblown sometimes. I do agree that it does vary from neighbourhood to neighbourhood but of all my friends that have moved here so far they have not had problems and we all live in dfferent suburbs, me south Jordan, some sandy, some Draper and some Daybreak. All different neighbourhoods, all from out of state or country and all managed to have a balance of non LDS and LDS friends and neighbours withoutissue. In fact my friend who moved here with an only chil is deighted her son has so many kids to play with as he doesn't have a sibling. Utah is a changing peeps, even in the suburbs and people are breaking down barriers by finding out things for themselves rather than being scared of even trying.
This actually makes me feel quite sad. I moved into my neighborhood a year and a half ago, and my neighbors are really friendly and welcoming, but I miss having close female friendships, and aside from one person (non LDS) who just moved, have not become close to anyone. I get it that people are busy (I am busy too!), and very few people actively shun non members.
But I guess if I had 100 built in "friends", I have been the new person often enough that I know how much it can suck, and how lonely and isolating it can feel to be the new person, so even though I had "enough" friends already, I think I would still want to extend a branch of friendship, and maybe could meet a cool new friend. I am members of all of the neighborhood and ward FB groups to stay up to date on neighborhood activities, and they make a big deal about new people coming into the ward and how all should welcome them and make them feel welcomed. I guess I just feel that it can be done for non-members too (though its not).
I understand where you are coming from, but whether someone is actively rejecting you solely based on not sharing the faith, or just not willing to make an effort to get to know someone new and strike up a friendship because you already have enough friends. It still feels isolating and like rejection.
After-all, we all are humans who want and crave friendships.
same again I have lots within walking distance(in the UK) and that didn't count the old friends from school I made as a child who live nearby and all round the country. Sad thing is as I said before its not intentional its just they don't have any free time as mums are often acting as chauffeurs to 6+kids running from one activity to another, involved in church or fundraising stuff or helping other extended family out. In the UK you are lucky if you can afford 2 kids as there are no tax incentives/breaks and most activities are school based so no need to cheauffeur kids around. Where do you live?? I thoroughly recommend the meetup site as I have a great group of girlfriends I have met through there, made friends now through girlscouts & soccer luckily which involves nights out with & without kids and days. Also no one walks their kids to school here which is because its such a huge place or they live round corner and kids walk themselves so harder to even see the parents let alone arrange anything social unless kids become quite close and then like my kids they get invited round and get to know their parents better. I have not been shunned at all for not going to church by any friends or neighbours nor have my kids but I do find like you that its weird kids have playdates and parents don't hang out, even parties sometimes kids of 4 or 5 just dropped off and left whereas at home not oly would we stay for the social side but to give parents a hand at the event. Even when you offer sometimes to stay they say no its fine. Drop me a note and I will see if I can make things any easier for you. I have also joined an expat site and realised that one mum from there actually attends my kids school with her kids and we are now firm friends along with another lady she introduced me to from Colorado.If I can help in any way I can. I also have a local mums group I belong to in South Valley through meetup and we are having a mums night out to the movies next week! As I have only 2 kids and mine only do a few not hundreds of activities like others(or do stuff after school at their school which other kids don't and instead run around getting them to stuff) I have more free time than most even with now doing voluntary hours at Humane society to get my daughters girl scout badge and I work 5 days a week
Reach out and if I can help I will as I too miss the closeness of friendships I had back home sometimes although I am getting there now here even though I have only been here 4 months. I think also its a cultural thing here sometimes as people just don't go out as much socially unless its a family thing or church thing and if they do its always an early finish compared to what I would call a night out. Thankfully a few of the ladies I have now met including the soccer mums are not that way! I had multiple friends from work, school,kids amongst other things and I had not originally lived or grew up in the area and regardless of havng each other we always welcomed in newcomers but then in the UK religion is not a factor and none of us went to places of worship and if we did then it still did not make a difference to making friends with people or seeing them and we had a balance of life outside the home , away from our hubby and kids as well as in it.
Last edited by Montygirl; 06-29-2015 at 04:55 PM..
I think she's talking about NW Washington State, where they're experiencing a rather legendary drought.
Yes, thank you. Our snowpack was 20% of normal. The Sleepy Hollow fire destroyed 29 homes and still isn't completely contained; the forest floor is crunchy; the temperatures are nearly 20 degrees above normal with no rain in sight for at least another 10 days, and most homes in the Seattle area don't have air conditioning.
I think it's considerably more involved than that. Of course, the situation differs from one neighborhood to the next, but there are a few commonalities that probably apply most of the time. I honestly don't believe that LDS folks are "rejecting on non-LDS newcomers." Maybe it's time to bump my old thread, "The lowdown on us Mormons." I'll have to do that when I finish with this post. Meanwhile, I'm just going to copy one post of mine from that thread here. It said:
1. Mormonism is probably one of the few, if not the only, Christian denomination where no matter where you live, your street address determines where you will attend church each Sunday. You're free to attend an LDS church on the other side of town, and you'll be welcomed there -- but always (even if you go there every week) as a "visitor." Your "home ward" is where your "ward family" resides. You see these people three hours every Sunday and associate with them at church functions throughout the week. You know their kids because you teach them in Sunday School and chauffeur them around to church-sponsored activities. If you're a woman, two women in your ward are assigned to drop in and visit with you every month, to pick your kids up after school in a pinch and to bring in a casserole to feed your family when you're under the weather. Whether you're a man or a woman, you will also have two men in your ward visit you on a monthly basis, to check on how you're doing and to pass any information you may ask them to on to your bishop (if you lost your job, for instance, or were going into the hospital for some surgery). Stop and think about it... If you were quite good friends with more than a hundred people within an area of just a few square blocks of your house, if your needs were being met by this wide circle of people you knew you had a lot in common with, how much effort would you put into getting to know someone who was new in your neighborhood and was not part of that group? Probably not as much effort as you should. We plead guilty. We may not have a good excuse, but it's not that we're going out of our way to shun you.
2. Mormons have a health code (the Word of Wisdom) that seems to interfere with our getting to know our non-Mormon neighbors a lot more than it should. Our non-Mormon neighbors would love to have us over for coffee, but they have heard that we're going to be offended by the gesture. Those who haven't done their homework may actually make the faux pas of inviting us over some evening "for a few drinks." There are, unfortunately, a sizable number of Mormons who would see that as meaning "a drunken brawl." Others among us are nowhere near that uptight about people social drinking. It's just something we don't do, and those of us who have spent our entire lives in the Church (and especially here in Mormon country, where we have plenty of friends who don't drink either) sometimes do make unfair assumptions about what "a couple of beers" really means. I know a lot of Mormons who would not want to go out to dinner with a couple that intends to have a glass of wine with their meal. I know a lot of Mormons who wouldn't give it a second thought. If possible, get to know your LDS neighbors in a setting that wouldn't involve alcohol before you invite them to a dinner where alcohol is served. It's silly, I know, that it should be such an issue, but if you want to get to know them, a little bit of respect for their beliefs will go along way. It probably won't take too awfully long before your having a glass of wine or them having a 7-up won't change the way in which you relate to each other.
3. Keep in mind that for us, the fun part of the weekend is only one day long. As much as we'd like to go to a movie or a football game or Lagoon with you, we would be very unlikely to agree to go with you on a Sunday. (We might watch the same movie or football game at home on TV, though. Don't ask me to explain that one.) We limit our shopping to the extent possible to the other six days of the week, and you won't find us out mowing our lawns or washing our cars on Sunday either. Some Mormons insist that their kids stay home with their families on Sunday when they're not in Church. This isn't Church policy, but I know a lot of families that feel that way. So, that means that even though they are happy to have their kids play with yours the other six days of the week, they may not be able to continue Saturday's activity on Sunday. That would include Saturday night sleepovers. Mondays are reserved for Family Home Evening, or at least they're supposed to be. A lot of LDS families won't let their kids do anything with friends on Monday night because they're going to be spending the evening with their own brothers and sisters. Couples whose kids are grown and out of the house are generally a lot less likely to be sticklers for Family Home Evenings. Finally, if you want to ask your LDS neighbors to go to a movie with you, keep in mind that many of them do not watch R-rated movies. Again, others do. You just need to get to know them and not take anything for granted.
Ah Katzpur, you may recall I'm a former Salt Laker and at times really miss Utah. Luckily, my wife and I will be taking a business trip to your lovely city in September, can't wait!
Anyway, I've been extolling Utah's virtues since we moved back to CO 47 years ago. What I've observed is that for most people, perception and stereotypes are reality, even if they have to hammer that round peg into that square hole. I try to tell people who have never been to UT not to believe everything they hear. I still chuckle when I look at the C-D posts where a poll is done on "The first thing that comes to mind state-by-state?" With CO, it's mostly "Mountains and skiing". With UT it's "Mormons and Dry, as in no liquor".
Some irony:
Colorado and Utah are culturally different, no doubting that. But we have our quirks too:
In Utah, you can purchase an auto at a dealership on Sunday. In Colorado, it's against the law to sell a car on Sunday.
In Utah, the state liquor stores are closed on Sunday. Until just a few years ago, you couldn't buy liquor in Colorado on Sunday either. Also, you can't buy liquor in grocery or convenience stores. 3.2 beer only.
In CO, it's is illegal to ride a horse while under the influence.
However, we now have legalized pot, 7-days a week.
So here you can't buy a car Sunday or get liquor in a grocery store. But you can get stoned pretty much whenever the urge hits, just don't be riding your horse.
Ah Katzpur, you may recall I'm a former Salt Laker and at times really miss Utah. Luckily, my wife and I will be taking a business trip to your lovely city in September, can't wait!
Anyway, I've been extolling Utah's virtues since we moved back to CO 47 years ago. What I've observed is that for most people, perception and stereotypes are reality, even if they have to hammer that round peg into that square hole. I try to tell people who have never been to UT not to believe everything they hear. I still chuckle when I look at the C-D posts where a poll is done on "The first thing that comes to mind state-by-state?" With CO, it's mostly "Mountains and skiing". With UT it's "Mormons and Dry, as in no liquor".
Some irony:
Colorado and Utah are culturally different, no doubting that. But we have our quirks too:
In Utah, you can purchase an auto at a dealership on Sunday. In Colorado, it's against the law to sell a car on Sunday.
In Utah, the state liquor stores are closed on Sunday. Until just a few years ago, you couldn't buy liquor in Colorado on Sunday either. Also, you can't buy liquor in grocery or convenience stores. 3.2 beer only.
In CO, it's is illegal to ride a horse while under the influence.
However, we now have legalized pot, 7-days a week.
So here you can't buy a car Sunday or get liquor in a grocery store. But you can get stoned pretty much whenever the urge hits, just don't be riding your horse.
KAR54, thanks for the amusing post. Oh all countries have their quirks. In UK can marry and smoke at 16 as well as join the army , yet can't drink until 18. Although guess same here too but legal drinking age including at in your own home is 21. You can also again as I understand it here join the army/marines or carry a firearm(firearms banned in UK, even with most police) but no drink. How many times have you fallen off your trusty steed KAR54:-) The only difference in the UK is that the law is nationwide and consistent rather than varying from county(state) to county (state). New Zealand where I lived 15 years ago also had regionalised laws so a lot of dry areas there too. Makes for fun life I suppose trying to work out the different rules !
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