$15 minimum wage in Seattle (dorm, school, organic)

[BATCAT]

Originally Posted by Seatown1

I agree but not $15/hour, which is like $6/hour higher than it is currently. Talk about one heck of a raise.

It's being phased in over quite a few years. Do you really think that for for an expensive urban center like Seattle, $15 is really going to be unreasonable in, say, 2020?

[BATCAT]

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

If you make minimum wage in America for more than two years, it is YOUR DAMN FAULT. Earn a raise, earn a promotion, or get a better job you lazy good for nothing pieces of subhuman filth.

I thought your earlier postings were a little shrill, so I'm glad you've toned it down a little.

[Basilide]

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

"Self sufficient" means you pay your own bills and can survive without government assistance, NOT that you pay your own studio apartment rent. If you can afford to pay a share of your rent, you are self sufficient.

So, apparently you didn't read the report you posted. Please read what I wrote again. In the report, they assume that a single person making 10.62 an hour can afford 1000/mo rent. That is laughable.

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

First of all, how the hell should we believe that the middle class will see an increase in their incomes?

Why should we believe they won't?

Originally Posted by victorianpunk

There are DOZENS of idiotic majors, from sociology to fine art, from philosophy to women's studies, that will result in a lifetime of flipping burgers. That is why so many people with degrees are flipping burgers.

Nothing you posted backs that statement up.

For one, since there has been a rise in the number of graduates with minimum wage jobs, you have to assume that all those graduates were majoring in one of your pre-defined "useless" majors. You also have to assume that the recession did not impact graduates with supposedly "useful" degrees.

But, the number of graduates working minimum wage jobs after the recession more than doubled: 260,000 graduates in minimum wage jobs - Mar. 31, 2014

Mind you, only 2 - 3% of college graduates work minimum wage (or less) jobs. And only 4.4% of fast food workers have college degrees between 2010 - 2012.

And "useless" majors are on the decline in popularity or roughly the same, while career-focused ones are more sought after, with more and more people going to college: http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...-focused/?_r=0

Not much of a big change in focus at all over the years: Undergraduate Degrees in the Humanities

So, if majoring in humanities dooms you to flipping burgers for minimum wage, where were all those burger flippers a decade ago? And if getting a degree in engineering, science, or an "in-demand" field keeps you out of minimum wage jobs, why did the number of minimum wage workers with degrees suddenly almost triple overnight? Something that was in demand is now no longer in demand, and since school takes quite a few years to complete, there was no predicting that your career focus would be in trouble in 2005, or 2006 by the time you graduated college.

U.S. pushes for more scientists, but the jobs aren

Into the Eye of the Storm: Assessing the Evidence on Science and Engineering Education, Quality, and Workforce Demand

College Graduates Struggle to Find Employment Worth a Degree - Bloomberg

Looks like graduates are having trouble across the board for the most part.

From the first link in my post:

Debbra Alexis, a 27-year-old Victoria's Secret employee with a bachelor's degree in health sciences, gathered more than 800 signatures in support of her campaign for higher pay at her New York City store. The store, part of L Brands (LB), ended up giving across-the-board raises of about $1 to $2 per hour to all workers in the Herald Square store.

Oh, nursing? Of course someone with a degree in health sciences wouldn't end up working in retail, right? Asking for a better wage at her job for herself and all the other employees? What a crime against Victoria Secret! So entitled!! No.. actually what she is doing is negotiating her pay to get what she believes her work is worth. Which is exactly what we all should be doing.

What you're calling entitled is a reaction to being told -- and believing -- the we can have a decent living if we work hard, go to school, get a degree doing something in demand and useful to society... and all of it was lies. We do all the "right" things and still get shafted. We're learn the hard way that we have to demand what we are worth instead of follow the rules penned out for us. Otherwise, we get a lifetime of debt (increasing every year way past inflation rates), have trouble finding any work at all for many "useful" degrees, work for insulting pay that doesn't make ends meet, and all the while are told we're entitled for being angry about wasting our time with a broken system and trying to change it. So pull your head out of your butt. Thanks.

[CrazyDonkey]

Originally Posted by Seatown1

Oh the old Henry Ford comparison. People who bring that up always forget that Henry Ford ran a private business called Ford Motor Company. His only goal was to make a profit and he found that increasing wages for his workers helped him do that. That's great for him and it did great things for FMC, but to claim that that this approach would translate equally-well into the public sector, for a 650,000 person city, in 2014, is blasphemous. You are dismissing economic research on the topic and diving straight into ideology, just like all those coffee drinking bearded Capitol Hill hipster protesters and their ring leader Kshama Sawant.

Economic research straddles both sides of the debate (and is often conducted with a foregone conclusion in mind). I do believe that raising the minimum wage, both locally and nationally, is long overdue. If that wasn't the case, the Kshama Sawants and her ilk wouldn't be getting the hearing, and votes, that they are.

Your argument, on the other hand, would seem to be opposed to the minimum wage as such, in that you are opposed to raising it under any circumstances. Then, why not bring back child labor? Serfdom? Debt bondage? They all would, arguably, lower prices and increase profits.

No, Ford was certainly no socialist. He was hoping to be able to hire better workers. That, and competitors raising wages to match, did over time turn those workers into middle-class consumers, however.

[Hemlock140]

Originally Posted by CrazyDonkey

Economic research straddles both sides of the debate (and is often conducted with a foregone conclusion in mind). I do believe that raising the minimum wage, both locally and nationally, is long overdue. If that wasn't the case, the Kshama Sawants and her ilk wouldn't be getting the hearing, and votes, that they are.

Your argument, on the other hand, would seem to be opposed to the minimum wage as such, in that you are opposed to raising it under any circumstances. Then, why not bring back child labor? Serfdom? Debt bondage? They all would, arguably, lower prices and increase profits.

No, Ford was certainly no socialist. He was hoping to be able to hire better workers. That, and competitors raising wages to match, did over time turn those workers into middle-class consumers, however.

If you look at the City Counsel votes, most are 8-1, Sawant against all the rest. Even the $15 minimum wage proposal is a modest bone toss, by the time all businesses are at $15 the cost of living will be that much higher and the minimum wage worker will still be at the same lifestyle as now. Worse, if the predictions of businesses raising prices, closing or moving away come to pass.

[Basilide]

Originally Posted by Hemlock140

If you look at the City Counsel votes, most are 8-1, Sawant against all the rest. Even the $15 minimum wage proposal is a modest bone toss, by the time all businesses are at $15 the cost of living will be that much higher and the minimum wage worker will still be at the same lifestyle as now. Worse, if the predictions of businesses raising prices, closing or moving away come to pass.

It is long overdue, though. So long, that now it's a disaster to raise it suddenly; but people are angry and stupid from being short-changed for so long.

Minimum wage hasn't kept up with inflation. It should have kept inflation down since businesses shouldn't have so much cause to raise prices or relocate like supposed if the wage is increased. But that hasn't happened. There is still outsourcing, prices still go up, and people are still underpaid... and that money goes to the higher-ups. If it had kept inflation down some, it's not doing the vast majority of workers any favors. There needs to be a balance somewhere if a minimum wage scheme is what we've decided to adopt to provide a baseline of value for workers.

That said, 15/hr is still way too much to expect for a minimum wage (not to be confused with a living wage). This is the only study I've seen that actually addresses a reasonable living wage. Minimum wage and some "living wage" calculations always assume that you have little to no vehicle/transportation costs (licensing fees, insurance, cost of repairs, bus passes, etc), can devote up to 50% of your wage on housing or share housing, have low medical expenses/copays for insurance, don't give your kids any entertainment/activities that cost money, don't have any amenities like internet or phone service and never eat out... basically, live a very stoic and frugal life, not a "normal standard of living".

What Sawant is trying to do is establish a living wage as a minimum wage. Which doesn't make sense, either.

[Ruth4Truth]

Just wondering... what happens to all the wages for office workers and others who, before the new minimum wage, were making $5 over minimum, and thought they were doing halfway decently? Does everyone's wage get hiked now, so that those office workers are suddenly making $20/hr., and the $20/hr. people get theirs hiked to $25/hr, and on up? I can imagine that a domino effect like that could end up in layoffs or cutting hours from full-time to 3/4 time, and the like, at major employers that are already cash-strapped, like the UW.

[Basilide]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Just wondering... what happens to all the wages for office workers and others who, before the new minimum wage, were making $5 over minimum, and thought they were doing halfway decently? Does everyone's wage get hiked now, so that those office workers are suddenly making $20/hr., and the $20/hr. people get theirs hiked to $25/hr, and on up? I can imagine that a domino effect like that could end up in layoffs or cutting hours from full-time to 3/4 time, and the like, at major employers that are already cash-strapped, like the UW.

Well, perhaps if we had an income tax, the higher wages would provide more revenue to fund "public" universities.

[BATCAT]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Just wondering... what happens to all the wages for office workers and others who, before the new minimum wage, were making $5 over minimum, and thought they were doing halfway decently? Does everyone's wage get hiked now, so that those office workers are suddenly making $20/hr., and the $20/hr. people get theirs hiked to $25/hr, and on up? I can imagine that a domino effect like that could end up in layoffs or cutting hours from full-time to 3/4 time, and the like, at major employers that are already cash-strapped, like the UW.

Answers:
Nothing happens to them.
No.

[Basilide]

Originally Posted by BATCAT

Answers:
Nothing happens to them.
No.

Yeah, because someone making 15/hr now after getting a raise, having an education, and doing technical work is suddenly going to be ok with making minimum wage.