What area of renewables will grow in Seattle?

[Hemlock140]

I use solar for a few things, and it works OK, but this year we have had more sun than normal for winter and spring. I have a solar trickle charger on my riding mower, a string of lights on the grape arbor, a light in my greenhouse, and fan in the greenhouse that are solar. At work we have looked into solar and even on the roof in an area without trees, it's not practical, especially with our relatively low electricity prices.

[FrankSpencer]

Originally Posted by mkarch

Right... but the OP was commenting on "solar installations" - which are either going to be done by individual property owners on a small scale (most of which are West of the Cascades) or large companies building solar farms. The latter are not geographically restricted to Washington State, so why would they pick land with a relatively low solar yield in an area that already has cheap hydro and wind power?

Does Vermont have large scale solar farms of the kind you would find in the Arizona Desert?

I'll let you assess the 'relatively low yield' from Eastern WA. Here you are:

UO SRML: Northwest Solar Resource Maps

If I was a farmer, or winery, or even a large home owner, I suspect a few solar panels might be quite attractive. And you haven't crossed the Cascades, have you? I know. it's scary over there ...

[CityWok]

Originally Posted by mkarch

Right... but the OP was commenting on "solar installations" - which are either going to be done by individual property owners on a small scale (most of which are West of the Cascades) or large companies building solar farms. The latter are not geographically restricted to Washington State, so why would they pick land with a relatively low solar yield in an area that already has cheap hydro and wind power?

They wouldn't The OP referenced an article discussing energy independence for the home which would imply solar installations for individuals instead of farms.

But since you mention it, that is interesting. Delivering energy at such a long distance and maintaining the cost of solar panels I suspect is not as cheap as the power sources already in place. But that's really a question for the solar farm people

[mkarch]

Originally Posted by FrankSpencer

I'll let you assess the 'relatively low yield' from Eastern WA. Here you are:

UO SRML: Northwest Solar Resource Maps

If I was a farmer, or winery, or even a large home owner, I suspect a few solar panels might be quite attractive. And you haven't crossed the Cascades, have you? I know. it's scary over there ...

I've crossed them more than enough to know what's over there. I could probably tell you about a few camping spots I've gone to for decades that you've never found. E WA is not Arizona.

[509]

Originally Posted by FrankSpencer

Eastern WA could generate huge amounts of solar. It's a tad sunnier over there. Just a tad. Bizarrely I've seen more solar panels in Vermont than in Eastern WA.

They already generate a little wind and hydro over there ... and even nuclear

Eastern Washington generates EXCESS electricity to its needs right now.

There have been over 200,000 acres destroyed by Industrial Wind Areas in eastern Washington.

Why would we want to destroy additional land in eastern Washington with industrial solar installations so people in western Washington, California and western Oregon can waste more energy??

[FrankSpencer]

Originally Posted by 509

Eastern Washington generates EXCESS electricity to its needs right now.

There have been over 200,000 acres destroyed by Industrial Wind Areas in eastern Washington.

Why would we want to destroy additional land in eastern Washington with industrial solar installations so people in western Washington, California and western Oregon can waste more energy??

because that Shrubbe Steppe deserty stuff ain't much good for anything else. 'Destroy' is a pretty emotive term - I think dams destroyed rivers much more than wind/solar farms effect the environment. Those millions of salmon didn't disappear by accident.

And if solar farms got rid of the odd coal powered generating station around the place, it might not be a bad thing for the world collectively... could get rid of that nuclear power plant too, coz that's so good for the environment, isn't it? Hanford is actually a lot less seismically stable than people originally thought. What a great place to store nuclear waste. next to a beautiful, salmon filled, clean river ...

And maybe growth? from a document I just received:

"Washington State is leader in hydro-power with pricing lower than any other major market in the US ($0.02 / kWh) as well as for reduced risk from natural disasters. There are currently 11 data centers in Eastern Washington."

Imagine if that number could be a lot more, all fueled by renewables. they are going to appear somewhere ... WA could be the place

And for amusement on this issue - enjoy

Ukip candidate asks: what happens when renewable energy runs out? | Politics | The Guardian

[509]

Originally Posted by FrankSpencer

because that Shrubbe Steppe deserty stuff ain't much good for anything else. 'Destroy' is a pretty emotive term - I think dams destroyed rivers much more than wind/solar farms effect the environment. Those millions of salmon didn't disappear by accident.
]

No..... those Salmon..... "got disappeared by commercial fishing". The Endangered Species by-catch for SALMON is up to 40%!!!! Really....do you think the loggers should kill 40% of the Spotted Owls EVERY year???

The dams have been retrofitted for salmon migration and the entire system is now run to maximize salmon runs. Have you checked the run numbers lately?? The issue now is commercial fishing and gill netting by the Indian tribes. There are thousands of mile of UNUSED salmon habitat on the National Forests. Lets stop commercial fishing and Indian gill netting to get fish back onto the National Forests.

Nature Conservancy identified shrub-steppe habitat in Washington state as the most endangered ecosystem. They are buying up thousand of acres, while the state of Washington is destroying thousands of acres through permitting of Industrial Wind Areas. The Governor of Washington under growth management has overidden LOCAL zoning banning Industrial Wind Areas and has required that the Industrial Wind Areas be permitted by the counties.

The dams are run-of-the river operations with the exception of Grand Coulee. So no. The Industrial Wind Areas have destroyed must more habitat than dams. Go walk an Industrial Wind Area. They are no longer functional ecological landscapes.

Think Globally....Act Locally. We have more energy than we need in eastern Washington. It is time for western Washington to develop its ENERGY RESOURCES. There are plenty of rivers to dam over there, plenty of places for tidal energy developments, and even wind power in western Washington would be generated in winter storms when it is most needed.

Currently, BPA is required under Federal Law to buy and dump wind generated power since in spring there is much lower demand for electricity. Does that make sense......destroy 200,000 acres to produce renewable energy.....use tax dollars to pay for it.....AND THEN DUMP it because there is no DEMAND for it???

We really need some common sense when it comes to energy in the Northwest.

Oh, on data centers Chelan County PUD has taken the first step to banning them....no more new hook-ups. They just don't generate the jobs and the electricity is too precious to waste storing Grandma's photo's in the cloud.

http://www.wvbusinessworld.com/news/...ower-requests/

[FrankSpencer]

Originally Posted by 509

No..... those Salmon..... "got disappeared by commercial fishing". The Endangered Species by-catch for SALMON is up to 40%!!!! Really....do you think the loggers should kill 40% of the Spotted Owls EVERY year???

The dams have been retrofitted for salmon migration and the entire system is now run to maximize salmon runs. Have you checked the run numbers lately?? The issue now is commercial fishing and gill netting by the Indian tribes. There are thousands of mile of UNUSED salmon habitat on the National Forests. Lets stop commercial fishing and Indian gill netting to get fish back onto the National Forests.

Fair post, but fishing and dams seem equally culpable, eg:

Salmon of the West - Why are salmon in trouble?

https://www.nwcouncil.org/history/DamsImpacts

For better or worse, there's a lot less peeps in Eastern WA, and a lot more land that is essentially unproductive. And if it wasn't for irrigation, it'd nearly all be unproductive. Reflect on how this can be a positive, with all that wind and sunshine to share with the rest of the world. A few solar farms on Hanford would be a lot less harmful than most of the activities that have happened there in the last 60 years. Why is that a harmful thought?

And for the record, I love Eastern WA. The wine and produce are superb, the Paprika Plains rivers are beautiful, and some areas are stunningly wondrous. But let's be honest, there's a lot to go around ...

[509]

Thanks for your comments Frank.

Couple of comments eastern Washington has a population equal to Idaho and much larger than Montana. It is also much smaller in acreage than those states. There really isn't much land "there's a lot to go around".

As a professional Forester for 40 years I really have a hard time with the concept of "unproductive land". That sage-shrub habitat is where I hike, hunt and fish. It really is an amazing landscape. Hardly unproductive.

Anyway......here's a small book on "unproductive" lands, species, and plants. Easy reading. Every library has one and most used book stores have several copies. Towards the end is the discussion on a Land Ethic for mankind. Front part of the book sets the tone for the discussion at the end.

A Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold.

A Sand County Almanac and Sketches Here and There: Aldo Leopold, Charles W. Schwartz: 9780195007770: Amazon.com: Books