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Well, okay, how about the saber-tooth tiger and woolly mammoth? And ItsMeFred's Pleistocene-era horses? As I said, there's no need to be boring about this.
You jest but these people are dead serious.
Pleistocene rewilding can begin immediately with species such as Bolson tortoises and feral horses and continue through the coming decades with elephants and Holarctic lions. Our exemplar taxa would contribute biological, economic, and cultural benefits to North America. Owners of large tracts of private land in the central and western United States could be the first to implement this restoration. Pleistocene rewilding: an optimistic agenda for twent... [Am Nat. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI
I will give them a little credit (just a little) for acknowledging this one point. They understand that extinction wasn't caused solely by the evil white Americans.
So, to get back to the topic - check into what is really going on or planned regarding "conservation efforts" (using the term loosely) for any location where you are thinking of buying land. Also watch local govs for proposing sneaky zoning changes that could force you off your land.
So, to get back to the topic - check into what is really going on or planned regarding "conservation efforts" (using the term loosely) for any location where you are thinking of buying land. Also watch local govs for proposing sneaky zoning changes that could force you off your land.
I would say don't worry about the conservation efforts, worry about plans to frack the heck out of your area. Also worry about trash living next door (or next lot or next...) that can make your life a living hell. Realize that there are a lot of people out there who don't give a hoot for your surroundings and whose only motivations are profit and getting their hands bloody for sport.
Adaptation. Humans by nature are expert at this. It's what we do.
Good riddance to you in living in a world where human and rat and roach are only wildlife left.
There is a reason why people go to college and study biology, for example. One of the lessons would be that when you remove one species, the balance gets upset. When you remove one more, balance is more upset. You have to do more to keep it from falling apart. Et cetera, et cetera. When you have removed enough species from the food chain, things around you may just implode spontaneously. I think it is arrogant to sit in a cozy home with all the conveniences of the modern world and make this nonchalant statement along the lines "oh, well, we'll adapt". Well, actually, it's not arrogant, it's ignorant.
I would still prefer all the species preserved and the ones we exterminated after settling the continent reintroduced where possible, if possible. I am not advocating free reign to wild animal but I think the "exterminate-everything-for-fun-and-profit mindset" has had free reign for 300+ years and it has resulted in nothing but bad things. Time to come up with a better framework.
Problem is, this place is so polarized, it is ridiculous. It's either reintroduce the mammoth or kill everything, screw any effort at any responsibility towards the environment. It is not this topic, it's everything else these days. Everybody seems to have some vested interest in something, obvious or not, rare are the people who do not stand to profit from some side of any issue. Sad is the world where it's come to that but money talks I guess. When you build everything on that one simple premise, you get what you got today.
In my experience, this is the type that screams the loudest for eliminating predators. They can't very well commune with nature if they have to watch for predators. They want to see deer in and around their suburban backyards but then freak out when predators track deer and other wildlife there.
They scream bloody murder when the deer come into town and eat their begonias too
In my town forest service comes right down to city limits and there are so many predators in the hills, (bears, wolves, cougar, coyote, bobcat, lynx) that the only safe place for the deer is town. Plus all the gardens and green well watered lawns. Add to that the landscaping that includes lots of hedges that make perfect bedding areas.
In the small town of less than 35,000 people near where I live there were over 600 deer living that were acknowledged anyway, so now because of people upset with deer pellets on their manacured lawns, the police department has to trap and kill at least 200 deer a year.
Now the meat goes to the food bank, and I don't have a problem with controlling the deer population, but the folks screaming most about the deer in their flower beds are also the ones that demanded the introduction of canadian wolves and usually are the ones that have a problem with hunting.
[quote=scarlet_ohara;28853193]So, to get back to the topic - check into what is really going on or planned regarding "conservation efforts" (using the term loosely) for any location where you are thinking of buying land. Also watch local govs for proposing sneaky zoning changes that could force you off your land. [quote=scarlet_ohara;28853193]
I agree, look for places to go to that support small holders trying to live, because there are a lot of places that regulate how you gather water, what food you can grow, what kind of house you can build, demand you are hooked to the grid for city water and/or power/sewer.
Regulation and taxes can make it impossible to stay on your property.
So if you are looking for a place to actually live, watch out for the government, and from personal experience, if you live in an area the eco-nuts like, the court cases and introduced predators can drive you out just as fast.
Oh come on. Now you're giving us the line that you are going to pick up your toys and go home.
Here's a question for you: why is it that only the last 300 years are important to you (concerning this matter)? In the grand scheme of things, it's an insignificant blip on an eternal time line--a grain of sand on an endless beach. How many types/species of living organisms have come and gone outside of that 300 year window? A species that went extinct a million years ago is just as extinct as one that disappeared 100 years ago. It's not that I completely disagree with you on this topic, but I just think you are looking at it through a microscope rather than the entire picture. Even more troublesome to me is that It somehow seems to tie into the "injustice of the American white man" with you. In my opinion that biases the way you look at this.
I don't like to see extinction any more than you do. But to me personally, the extinct tyrannosaurus was no less valuable on a universal scale than the dodo bird (or whatever else we've been responsible for eradicating). In your mind, why is the disappearance of the dodo "evil" and the disappearance of the stegosaurus not "evil." Both are just as gone. It doesn't matter (to me) when they disappeared, only that they did. Was the meteor (presumably) that wiped out the dinosaurs evil? Or is it just the American White Male (TM) that is evil? Because that meteor was responsible for a whole lot more havoc with species than grandpappy was.
It's not that I disagree with all you say here; more like I question the lens you view the matter through. That last comment of yours sort of drove it home for me (the 300 years comment). Extinct is extinct no matter the point in geologic/universal time. It's causes are nothing unique to American White Males (TM). You might say that these were preventable--true, but again, the rest of the missing animals on the planet are just as gone. Why are they somehow of less concern to you? This planet never has been static in any respect... including the types of life found on it in any given epoch. It's going to change whether we are here or not. Do you think the timber wolf will be here in 100,000 years (in its current form) whether we exist or not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip
So if you are looking for a place to actually live, watch out for the government, and from personal experience, if you live in an area the eco-nuts like, the court cases and introduced predators can drive you out just as fast.
Another reason I think the best place to "bug out" to is somewhere where nobody else wants to be and/or a place one cannot easily get to. I guess the problem with that is that sooner or later "they" will find a reason to want to be there... and control the ball game.
Oh come on. Now you're giving us the line that you are going to pick up your toys and go home.
You broke all my toys!
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC
Here's a question for you: why is it that only the last 300 years are important to you (concerning this matter)? In the grand scheme of things, it's an insignificant blip on an eternal time line--a grain of sand on an endless beach. How many types/species of living organisms have come and gone outside of that 300 year window? A species that went extinct a million years ago is just as extinct as one that disappeared 100 years ago. It's not that I completely disagree with you on this topic, but I just think you are looking at it through a microscope rather than the entire picture. Even more troublesome to me is that It somehow seems to tie into the "injustice of the American white man" with you. In my opinion that biases the way you look at this.
So, here is an answer for you: the white settlers started the cycle of destruction on this continent, except that this is not really a cycle, more like an ongoing thing that has turned into a culture and a mentality. You have a lot of people who think land and animals are there to serve their bottom line. This kind of thinking just goes against my being is all. The reason why focus on the last 3-400 years is that people largely did not have the destructive power to extinct species before that. We cannot demand the meteor that killed the dinosaurs to reintroduce them, can we? The same people who want to destroy things are the people who claim that they are doing that because they are somehow superior to Nature. Either out of ignorance, malice or greed, they kick the can down the road and tell you that "humans will adapt if species are all gone" (hello Scarlet!), "it is all OK with the world and you need not worry your pretty little head with it" (hello climate change deniers, fracking, oil and gas companies and their employees and everyone else who stands to profit from exploitation of some kind of a resource) etc.
Often times in life there is no scientific proof of things. Just a feeling that you have of what is right or wrong. I think that drilling next to an aquifer to extract gas or oil is bad. My whole being tells me so. History tells me so. There are many examples of technologies and things that were done that at the time were vehemently defended by whoever was using them to obtain profit. Just 10 or 20 years later these same things proved to have had disastrous effects. So, "shut up and move on" seems to be the mentality.
These days you have people questioning all these things a priori. They don't want to dig through the mantle across the continent only to find out that "oops, we screwed up" (but someone still made a pretty buck). They have gotten tired of seeing all the greed and destruction. It is grotesque to them to see senseless deaths of animals and trees just because someone needs to make a living (usually either the peon who has no other way to make a living or his puppet master at some corporate HQ).
A lot of people feel that the kind of destructive attitude is one of utter arrogance. If you are superior to Nature then you also have the responsibility to protect it. He who exploits, usually exploits for him/herself and his immediate family. In the process, Nature and species are destroyed FOR ALL OF US but these people do not care about anything or anyone else. Just because you own a piece of paper that says that this 2 acre or 2,000 acre property is yours NOW, it does not mean that you do not have a greater responsibility to the planet and everyone else.
I bought a 5 acre foreclosure that had 7 horses on it. Took me 6 months to clean the dirt of nails, burned 1.5V batteries, beer cans and who knows what else. Took me a few months to manually mow down (using a scythe) all the weeds that came after the land was grazed down to nothing. It will take me years to rehabilitate this piece of land to its previous balance. What benefit does the planet or humanity have from such "people"? Yet, they propagate, have children who are like them and also consume valuable resources which we are running out of. These people too feel that they are superior to Nature and obviously have no respect for it. There are MANY of these people all over.
Go to any lake where people are allowed with their boats. It is loud, it stinks and it feels like mass rape of the water and everything that lives in it. If I was a fish living in it, I think I would beg for humane euthanasia. Yet, do you think ANYONE on ANY of those boats gives a hoot about any of that? About all the gas burned so that they can have their way with the water? 'Tis the culture - no respect for any of it. It's an industry too, multi-billion dollar one. Same way with those folks who come out to Yellowstone to rape it in their ATV. What the heck is the point? You are coming out to a National Park to be loud and fumigate the area with your machine. Does that make any sense?
Imagine you were the biggest and baddest guy in your high school. If you chose to use your power to abuse and bully others, you are not a good person. You would be just another lowlife bully. If you used your power, however, to protect everyone from being bullied - then your life has meaning - you are helping others and you are doing the right thing.
With power comes responsibility to do the right thing.
The Internet is full of people posing with dead animals they have shot. They are laughing while what was alive 10 minutes ago is now a pile of meat, shot for trophy or fun. People make a living guiding these trips into the mountains, people travel from everywhere to take the shot. It is as if they are shooting paper. I could not do it, sorry, just not in me. Not like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC
I don't like to see extinction any more than you do. But to me personally, the extinct tyrannosaurus was no less valuable on a universal scale than the dodo bird (or whatever else we've been responsible for eradicating). In your mind, why is the disappearance of the dodo "evil" and the disappearance of the stegosaurus not "evil." Both are just as gone. It doesn't matter (to me) when they disappeared, only that they did. Was the meteor (presumably) that wiped out the dinosaurs evil? Or is it just the American White Male (TM) that is evil? Because that meteor was responsible for a whole lot more havoc with species than grandpappy was.
The meteor is an inanimate object. It just exists and it is a matter of chance what happens to it or what happens because of it. The American White Male has the power to make a difference for the better. It is a conscious decision.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisC
It's not that I disagree with all you say here; more like I question the lens you view the matter through. That last comment of yours sort of drove it home for me (the 300 years comment). Extinct is extinct no matter the point in geologic/universal time. It's causes are nothing unique to American White Males (TM). You might say that these were preventable--true, but again, the rest of the missing animals on the planet are just as gone. Why are they somehow of less concern to you? This planet never has been static in any respect... including the types of life found on it in any given epoch. It's going to change whether we are here or not. Do you think the timber wolf will be here in 100,000 years (in its current form) whether we exist or not?
The only reason there are no pictures of very brown paleolithic hunters smiling next to a large hunt of meat is because there were no cameras...
Those hunters were hunting for survival. A lot of hunting done today is for trophies. Heck, people fly all the way to Africa to shoot an elephant or a lion. They also fly all over the United States to shoot something. Don't tell me it's for food.
OD
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And ItsMeFred's Pleistocene-era horses? As I said, there's no need to be boring about this. 
