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I think the issue w/ the thread is the use of the word "commune". Community based models do in fact make perfect sense. In fact, I would not be surprised to see many more community based models become more prevalent in the coming years.
I think the issue w/ the thread is the use of the word "commune". Community based models do in fact make perfect sense. In fact, I would not be surprised to see many more community based models become more prevalent in the coming years.
Your correct, and knew when I started thread a certain negativity would always be associated with that word...but I couldn't think of any other word at the time to describe what I had in mind...
Kind of like useing the word 'car'...when you maybe really mean Porchse or Dodge...but you say 'car' instead...
On another tip...
Some one mentioned earlier about the Prison/refuge theme being used in a few movies...
Well one that comes to mind, that I own, is 'Resident Evil, the After Life'...
In this creepy scene here, one of those held up inside is surveying the zombie landscape...but while he's doing that, and has a feeling that all is ok and stable...
The camera moves downward, through the zombies, and under the earth, where a more intelligent strain of zombies or zombie, has dug a tunnel underneath...
I found the scene to be very metephorical in that it seems 'evil' is always determined to find a way in...and works over time to do so...
So while they're asleep inside, feeling confident that all threats are contained on the outside...these creatures have found a way around the wall, not by going high, but by going low...
I really hope it doesn't come down to this...
It's like either your prepared, or your not...there's really no middle ground...you can't get prepared on the day things fall apart...
I suspect...it will take a medical calamity, to set such events into play...
Something like the 'black plague' of Europe way back...
If you weaken a whole populations immune system, basically make everyone sick, than whether by desgin or accident, it creates a climate ripe for either take over or internal chaos...
If you make a whole population sick, even the best warriors will be to sick, weak, to pick up a weapon...
I envy those who have thought this out decades ago, and who are now prepared to handle such times...
For the rest of us, we're just sitting ducks...
Last edited by Time and Space; 12-22-2011 at 09:05 PM..
Heck, I doubt most roving 'groups' would even be that orginized...
That's probably what you'd be thinking right up to the point you start bleeding to death after being shot in an ambush by one of my roving groups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space
These roving groups aren't going to have 10's of thousands of ammo or rounds to waste trying to get into a fortified prison, just to get some Cambell soup....
You should leave the tactical stuff to someone else.
If I want in, I'm coming in. I used to practice attacking and defending nuclear weapon storage sites and EPW/CI compounds. I've seen engineers from several different armies, including the Soviets, practicing breaching obstacles and barriers.
For your little prison in the photo, that would be child's play. A prairie fire would work wonders. Or I could just shut off the water main and wait 3 days for you to come out begging for water. My napalm mortars would work well there too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space
The sight of a prison alone, with armed men around it, would be enough to detour most...unless they were hungry and looking for a place of refuge...
Don't make the mistake of underestimating people.
People who are pampered and used to having everything, and that would be 100% of Americans, will turn into rabid dogs when there is nothing to eat. As far as they're concerned, if you're sitting in a compound, then you got more than just a can of soup. And if you aren't giving it to them, they will take if from you, because they have nothing to lose.
Either they die trying to get in, or they die of starvation. Not much difference. The will to survive is incredibly powerful; powerful enough to overcome the fear of death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space
Aside from the Government, not many grryioups would have the resorces to launch a full scale campaign on those inside...
The only resource they need is a pair of water-pumps, or a pipe-wrench. They shut off the water and you'll be out in 3 days. You might want to study sieges throughout history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space
So what i'm saying is prisons simple provide kind of a ready made fortress, to those needing one....
No, they don't. Even if that were true, ultimately your survival comes down to eliminating threat forces.
You're going to have to incorporate ambush/counter-ambush patrols and eliminate any potential threat, which is basically any living person who does not offer an advantage in knowledge to you (like a mechanical engineer, hydraulic engineer, homeopathic doctor, surgeon, veterinarian, etc); even if they aren't armed they are still a threat because they consume resources -- like food -- or because they will ally with a group who is hostile to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space
The powerful, and those with resorces, will be taken care of regardless...
The rest of us will be forced to fend for ourselves...
Well, if you're going to attempt to go it alone, you'll fail. Miserably. That's the sad thing. So many suckers wasting all of their time and money "prepping" and they'll all die horrible deaths.
They think they're going to hole up in their apartment or home and eat their MREs and dried fruits and meats. I'll grab some shower curtains and burn them in the HVAC system. A few minutes of toxic/poisonous gases and they'll be dying to get outside. Or I'll raid Wal*Mart and get big can of chlorine for swimming pools and burn that. Chlorine will drive them out in a few seconds. Or I'll just burn their house down. They can either die of smoke inhalation, be burnt to death, or grab one of the weapons they wasted thousands of dollars on and shoot their families then commit suicide. Or they can run outside and my people will shoot them.
Chlorine would work on your little prison, too. I could set up burn barrels, burn chlorine tablets and the fumes would either drive you out or drive you into hiding, so I can easily penetrate.
And just think...I'm a good guy. What if I were evil?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space
There's many like me, who know what's coming...but are basically helpless to do anything about it...
There's nothing coming.
If you're waiting for an, um, "economic collapse" you'll be waiting forever very slowly.
No economy has ever "collapsed."
The most likely event in your life-time would be an asteroid strike. Something 2km to 4km in diameter wouldn't exactly be a global killer or an extinction level event, but it would kill 50% of the world's population. Odd, but 90% of Americans would die, while 90% of Eastern Europeans would live. It's a matter of life-style. It would throw up enough ejecta to destroy crops for 1 to 2 years.
Apart from that, a X7-X9 Class Solar Flare is the next most likely. They happen about every 150 to 250 years as best as anyone can tell, and the last one was in 1859. That would kill off about 70% of the population in the northern hemisphere, again, mostly in the US and Western Europe. Canada and Eastern Europe would do well.
A nuclear EMP event, say 3-5 well-placed ICBM/SLBMs about 400 kt to 750 kt detonated about 60-80 miles above the surface would put the US and parts of Canada and Mexico into the Stone Age for about a Century or more. About 300 Million Americans would die within 9-12 months of starvation, disease or violence. That would be more likely to occur in the latter half of this Century. And the likelihood is directly proportional to your willingness to step down just a notch from the Extravagant American Life-Styleâ„¢.
A Toba-Event is probably the least likely this Century, but still a possibility. That would likely kill off 3/5th to 4/5th of the world's population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space
You've already constructed a negitave scenerio in your head before even trying....
Well, there's fantasy, and then there's reality. Negativity is part of reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space
It's not about 'communes', it's about 'community'....and there's plenty of loving, thriving communities out there....
The Stelle Group is one such community. They own a huge tract of land in Illinois, and then another in Texas.
He's a nutter.
He claims to channel some alien being who lived on the lost continent of Mu in the South Pacific which allegedly sunk. Never mind that continents cannot sink (and I'm sure people are thinking of Atlantis but might I remind you Plato never says that -- it is an outrageous lie perpetrated by detractors -- the Greek word is inundated, not sunk -- Atlantis was flooded according Plato as related by Solon as told by a priest at the Temple at Sais -- possibly by the sea levels which rose about 400-600 feet at the end of the Ice Age depending on the sources cited).
The logic behind Illinois and Texas is the "earth changes" thing where an earthquake or something is suppose to cause parts of the North American continent to sink. I think we already covered that. If you search the internet, you'll find maps from they psychos and nutters that show it, like this one:
He wrote a book titled 5/5/2005 in which he claimed a rare planetary alignment occurring on that day would cause this cataclysmic event. It didn't happen (of course).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space
I'm beggining to see why some communities don't work, cause of certain resentment people hold in their hearts towards others hypathetical work habits and ethics, before such a community is even put together...
Based on what you've written to this point, a community for you would only work if you employed some type of psychological testing akin to the tests used by e-Harmony.com and other similar "match-making" sites.
You'll need to find individuals extremely compatible with you to make it work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time and Space
First, you come at me with the wrong premise...
I'm not here to boast or brag or through the idea of communes in anyones face...
I simply started with a question, and what I was hoping was enough positive like minded people would come together, and exchange positive ideas, real life solutions to meet the needs of folks like myself and others...
And then from there...who knows...
Instead, it seems to have drawn more skeptics, than believers...
Well, again, there's fantasy, and then there's reality. The reality is that people do not change, and in fact are resistant to change. People generally only change when they want to change, and their desire to want to change more often than not requires external stimuli to coerce the desire to want to change.
In plain English, there is no reason at present to make people even consider the desire to change. Perhaps in 20 years, when the economic situation is largely unchanged and very bad for some, communal societies will gain some popularity, but for now that just isn't going to happen.
patrols will just get picked off. IF you had the trained, equipped and motivated men to make such patrols, which you dont and won't. :-) My "how to" .22 silencer book has sold 1/2 million copies since 1994. Silent, autoloading rifle ambush-sniping has never been seen on any level like it is going to be seen if shtf.
bs, the SS setup is going to collapse, and soon, cause there aint enough younger people to support the baby boomer "bulge". So the gov't, knowing that old people have nothing better to do than VOTE on SS issues, WILL inflate the $ even MORE, and it's near worthless already. It's worth 2% of what it was worth 100 years ago. In 1970, gold was $135 an oz, and an hour's minimum wage cleared enough to buy 3 gallons of gas or 8 McDonald's hamburgers. try that now, folks.
That's probably what you'd be thinking right up to the point you start bleeding to death after being shot in an ambush by one of my roving groups.
You should leave the tactical stuff to someone else.
If I want in, I'm coming in. I used to practice attacking and defending nuclear weapon storage sites and EPW/CI compounds. I've seen engineers from several different armies, including the Soviets, practicing breaching obstacles and barriers.
For your little prison in the photo, that would be child's play. A prairie fire would work wonders. Or I could just shut off the water main and wait 3 days for you to come out begging for water. My napalm mortars would work well there too.
Don't make the mistake of underestimating people.
People who are pampered and used to having everything, and that would be 100% of Americans, will turn into rabid dogs when there is nothing to eat. As far as they're concerned, if you're sitting in a compound, then you got more than just a can of soup. And if you aren't giving it to them, they will take if from you, because they have nothing to lose.
Either they die trying to get in, or they die of starvation. Not much difference. The will to survive is incredibly powerful; powerful enough to overcome the fear of death.
The only resource they need is a pair of water-pumps, or a pipe-wrench. They shut off the water and you'll be out in 3 days. You might want to study sieges throughout history.
No, they don't. Even if that were true, ultimately your survival comes down to eliminating threat forces.
You're going to have to incorporate ambush/counter-ambush patrols and eliminate any potential threat, which is basically any living person who does not offer an advantage in knowledge to you (like a mechanical engineer, hydraulic engineer, homeopathic doctor, surgeon, veterinarian, etc); even if they aren't armed they are still a threat because they consume resources -- like food -- or because they will ally with a group who is hostile to you.
Well, if you're going to attempt to go it alone, you'll fail. Miserably. That's the sad thing. So many suckers wasting all of their time and money "prepping" and they'll all die horrible deaths.
They think they're going to hole up in their apartment or home and eat their MREs and dried fruits and meats. I'll grab some shower curtains and burn them in the HVAC system. A few minutes of toxic/poisonous gases and they'll be dying to get outside. Or I'll raid Wal*Mart and get big can of chlorine for swimming pools and burn that. Chlorine will drive them out in a few seconds. Or I'll just burn their house down. They can either die of smoke inhalation, be burnt to death, or grab one of the weapons they wasted thousands of dollars on and shoot their families then commit suicide. Or they can run outside and my people will shoot them.
Chlorine would work on your little prison, too. I could set up burn barrels, burn chlorine tablets and the fumes would either drive you out or drive you into hiding, so I can easily penetrate.
And just think...I'm a good guy. What if I were evil?
There's nothing coming.
If you're waiting for an, um, "economic collapse" you'll be waiting forever very slowly.
No economy has ever "collapsed."
The most likely event in your life-time would be an asteroid strike. Something 2km to 4km in diameter wouldn't exactly be a global killer or an extinction level event, but it would kill 50% of the world's population. Odd, but 90% of Americans would die, while 90% of Eastern Europeans would live. It's a matter of life-style. It would throw up enough ejecta to destroy crops for 1 to 2 years.
Apart from that, a X7-X9 Class Solar Flare is the next most likely. They happen about every 150 to 250 years as best as anyone can tell, and the last one was in 1859. That would kill off about 70% of the population in the northern hemisphere, again, mostly in the US and Western Europe. Canada and Eastern Europe would do well.
A nuclear EMP event, say 3-5 well-placed ICBM/SLBMs about 400 kt to 750 kt detonated about 60-80 miles above the surface would put the US and parts of Canada and Mexico into the Stone Age for about a Century or more. About 300 Million Americans would die within 9-12 months of starvation, disease or violence. That would be more likely to occur in the latter half of this Century. And the likelihood is directly proportional to your willingness to step down just a notch from the Extravagant American Life-Styleâ„¢.
A Toba-Event is probably the least likely this Century, but still a possibility. That would likely kill off 3/5th to 4/5th of the world's population.
Well, there's fantasy, and then there's reality. Negativity is part of reality.
The Stelle Group is one such community. They own a huge tract of land in Illinois, and then another in Texas.
He's a nutter.
He claims to channel some alien being who lived on the lost continent of Mu in the South Pacific which allegedly sunk. Never mind that continents cannot sink (and I'm sure people are thinking of Atlantis but might I remind you Plato never says that -- it is an outrageous lie perpetrated by detractors -- the Greek word is inundated, not sunk -- Atlantis was flooded according Plato as related by Solon as told by a priest at the Temple at Sais -- possibly by the sea levels which rose about 400-600 feet at the end of the Ice Age depending on the sources cited).
The logic behind Illinois and Texas is the "earth changes" thing where an earthquake or something is suppose to cause parts of the North American continent to sink. I think we already covered that. If you search the internet, you'll find maps from they psychos and nutters that show it, like this one:
He wrote a book titled 5/5/2005 in which he claimed a rare planetary alignment occurring on that day would cause this cataclysmic event. It didn't happen (of course).
Based on what you've written to this point, a community for you would only work if you employed some type of psychological testing akin to the tests used by e-Harmony.com and other similar "match-making" sites.
You'll need to find individuals extremely compatible with you to make it work.
Well, again, there's fantasy, and then there's reality. The reality is that people do not change, and in fact are resistant to change. People generally only change when they want to change, and their desire to want to change more often than not requires external stimuli to coerce the desire to want to change.
In plain English, there is no reason at present to make people even consider the desire to change. Perhaps in 20 years, when the economic situation is largely unchanged and very bad for some, communal societies will gain some popularity, but for now that just isn't going to happen.
Good heavens... where did that come from...wow!...totally high octane...
You so remind me of 'Drake' (played by Gary Busey) from this scene in Black Sheep...
And I guess I'd be the one driving the car, who accidently stumbles across your path...(Steve Dodds)...
I'm still reeling from your post...I need a few moments to digest all of that......
"Holing up" in any kind of fortification that can be cut off or surrounded could ultimately be FUBAR... no matter how well built and defended you think it might be. You don't need to break into a fortification to have a successful siege... you just need to cut off or contaminate their food, water or air supply. Fire and flooding (esp underground bunkers) are also very useful and you don't necessarily need to get inside the fortification to use either of those. And you'd be really surprised at how easy it may actually be to bring down your fortifications with the right force applied in the right place... we're not talking an industrial wrecker or lots of high-explosives either.
Fortifications should really be viewed as deterrents or delay tactics for CASUAL marauders at best... but anyone with a DEDICATED desire IS going to get themselves in or get you out eventually, so don't bank your life on them. (Although you might be safe from mindless, slow moving zombies or rabid animals as long as they don't swarm the place and become disinterested/leave before you need more food and water). In some disaster models, having a heavily fortified compound actually attracts the very marauders you're hoping to deter... which would suck. And, of course, having all your resources in one place makes it easier to steal or destroy; and all your people in one place means no one outside the line can ride in to save your bacon.
Originally Posted by MissingAll4Seasons;22247100 (Although you might be safe from mindless, slow moving zombies
[/QUOTE
And as I sit here watching Resident Evil part whatever...
I feel more safe around those zombies at times, than I do man...
Why?
Cause the zombie threat is so one dimensional...basic survival...the zombies...whether the fast running infected kind, or the slow more Night of the living dead, classical kind, only pose a threat on one level...
Where as man can get you from many different levels...
The simplicity of the zombies in all these post apacolyptic movies, just makes them seem more safe to me...or at least living in such a world...
Whether 'I am Legend' or '28 days later'...(well maybe not the 28 days later kind, cause they're highly infectuous)...
Ye, the zombies on 28 days later, those things just so much as sneeze on you, and your done...
But what I'm saying, is I think life is such a world would be far less stressful...no bills, no rent or morgage, any car you want to drive, could stay in a variety of nice penthouses, or yachts....
I never understand why the men or characters cast in these movies, are always so determined to 'bring the population back'...or so sad that they're alone...like in Omega man...
Well maybe back then, cause there was no computers or DVD's ect ect...
But one scenerio they never bring up is power facilities...like Dams and nuclear power plants...
What would happen to these places if there was no one to man them?
They would probably explode...
If there's no one to man these plants, pressure and heat would build and bam!...not to mention all the war heads, and nuclear waste sites...
(We've created an enviornment that now must constantly be manned by people...or else all this stuff will explode and leak into the ground...not good...)
I just sometimes wonder, when all this stuff goes down, and say the central government breaks down, no more national government, just small groups, towns, villages...I wonder what kind of people we will be?
I mean without the constitution and central government keeping most on a harness, would we be just like the Sunni and Shi'ites about to go at it in Iraq?
In times of peril, will our base instincts lead us down that same path?
It's a scary thought...
But back to my original premise...in such an enviornment...i'd feel more confident in surviving around zombies...who have no political ideologies...all they want to do is eat you...that's it...that really simplifies life and your troubles...where as with man, you never know what his angle is...
Since communes have a long history of rapid and catastrophic failure, I'm not sure how they could possibly make sense "again". Cooperatives tend to work fairly well but communes are destined to fail because humans are social animals, not herd animals.
Actually, not to nit pick, a "dollar bill" was worthless in 1933.
But in terms of equivalent buying power, based on the Wholesale Price Index where 1914 = 100, then a "dollar bill" in 2011 is about 1 or less.
99% loss in buying power - or more - if you count the hidden costs of socialist overhead that cuts the buying power even more.
"... the project's price tag more than doubling from what was presented to the voters three years ago. The project's completion date was also extended from 2020 to 2033."
-------------------
2033 - 2011 = 22 years.
TWENTY TWO YEARS ?!?
Pricetag doubling in THREE years?
Inflation and Blundering combined.
{"Atlas Shrugged" being played out in Real Time ? }
-------------------
Between 1890 and 1910, the U.S. built tens of thousands of miles of electric traction rail with far less technology - and far less government meddling.
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