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I agree. I live in the middle of nowhere because it's good for the soul.
Really has nothing to do with the end of the world. lol
Something I discovered many years ago is that one appreciates their neighbors more when they can't hear each others' dogs bark. (Not to mention the fact that only sparsely populated areas get a full view of the night sky anymore!)
There is a reason why the map looks like it does. Places like Nebraska, Kansas, Missouri, Iowa, Ohio, Arkansas, Oklahoma etc. - you could not pay me enough money to live in (no offense)
Some places are pure desert or are "freeze your behind 8 months of the year" weather. I lived in Saskatchewan, Canada for 5 years. Summer for the poor Canadians was July with temps in the 60s and 70s and northerly winds. Winter was snow in September, a freeze and a thaw in May. In between spells of -50 for weeks. No thanks - there is nothing you can do in such weather but get fat at home.
Most places in Texas are desolate deserts and mountain tops that are privately owned as parts of huge ranches (hundreds of thousands of acres, especially West Texas). New Mexico has at least 6-7 million acres of national forests, tons of BLM land you cannot live on and a sizable number of huge ranches (again in the hundreds of thousands of acres). Jobs are scarce in all these areas so unless daddy left you the land or you are in the 1% . There is a lot of swamp in FL, LA etc. that you would not normally want to live in...
So, people flock to places that have a nice and mild climate and jobs. Doesn't make you "smarter" for picking a desolate place in NE Kansas just solely on the basis of desolation. It might so happen that you will be in your 90s on your deathbed and SHTF never happened. If your only guideline was SHTF and you gave up people and companionship and modern conveniences based solely on that (and lived like a hermit for 50 years only because of it), well, that's a terrible mistake.
A lot of people claim they want solitude but then all their neighbors in a desolate place are their community and they cling to it. Well, if a neighbor sucks you better pray you had lots of money to put some acreage between the two of you. However, not a lot of people have the money to put a lot of acreage in between each other. So you are either well to do, lucky (or lucky and smart) and are judging people less fortunate than you...
Preparing for that "one" shtf event that may or may not happen and making your life hundreds of times more difficult because of it is simply not worth it for a lot of people. For me, I don't like people much so low density is important. That doesn't mean I would run to Hudspeth county, TX, for example and buy 20 acres for $2,000 in the desert where the tumbleweeds and my family will be only things living..
My $.02
OD
I suppose your points in this post could make a good thread topic. I can only speak for myself, but if my only motivation for moving far from other people was that I thought the country was going to blow up tomorrow, I probably wouldn't bother. There has to be more to it than that. My area (Utah) has lots and lots of "preppers" who prepare for rough times--probably more than anywhere else in the US. It's part of the traditional culture here. So if my only motivation were "surviving SHTF," then I am in a pretty good area for that.
But the thing is, there's more to it that that--not only for me, but there has to be more to it for anyone who aspires to disappear into the hinterlands solo. It really needs to be part of your emotional/psychological makeup. If it's not, isolation simply will not work for any significant length of time for you. I think that is a divide within the "survival community." Some folks would simply not function for long in isolation or near isolation--they are far too "social" to handle it. I know many people like this.
As for me, I naturally gravitate toward isolation. I have been that way all my life--long before I ever became interested in sufficiency, "prepping," or survival. And it's not that I don't function well in social settings. I do. In fact, it has been part of my job for the last 20 years. It's just that I prefer seclusion. I've mentioned this topic once or twice here on the forum, because I think it's an important one. If you think you can survive in a SHTF situation in isolation, then you'd better gravitate towards isolation in the good times as well. Those of us who are like that are called "introverts."
But, I've found it's nearly impossible to explain an introvert to an extrovert. It just doesn't compute. I'll put it to you like this: if I had a way to sustain myself, I could start walking west tomorrow and continue for a few hundred miles into the deserts to where almost nobody lives, there are no paved roads, there are no Walmarts, there are no restaurants, there are very few people, there isn't much of anything besides grease wood, cactus and tumbleweed... and I could stay there indefinitely and never see another living soul. And I would be fine. Perfectly happy. I simply require little or no social interaction to be content.
So for someone like that, other than the heat (which I certainly could NOT handle), running to Hudspeth county, TX, for example and buying 20 acres for $2,000 in the desert where the tumbleweeds roam would work out just fine. But because of the intolerable heat in a place like Texas (or where I live now ), I chose Walsh County, North Dakota--even though the population density is a bit on the high side for me. But the cold climate makes up for that disadvantage. And it's not because I want to hunker down and wait for the world to end. It's because I would eventually have moved to a place like that anyway.
Oh... by the way... July temps in the 60s and 70s with northerly winds sounds like heaven to me. Sign me up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ognend
Some places ... are "freeze your behind 8 months of the year" weather.... Winter was snow in September, a freeze and a thaw in May. In between spells of -50 for weeks. No thanks - there is nothing you can do in such weather but get fat at home.
Are you kidding me? That's the only time of year I like around here. Unfortunately it only lasts around 4 months--5 if we're lucky. And, if we're lucky, we get some sub-zero weather. Also, it's a fairly short drive to 9,000 ft above sea level and sub-zero weather much of the winter. Grab that sub-zero rated parka and those XC skis (or snowshoes) and... ahhhhh, you're making me smile. Can't wait. Just a couple more months!
Nothing to do???? That's the only time there IS something enjoyable to do out-of-doors. The rest of the year I traipse around in the woods, swatting deer flies, wishing it were winter.
But, hey... I'm the type of guy who wishes that Antarctica were a state.
Personally, I don't like lots of people around. The more people, the more laws and regulations are necessary for them to live closely as civility and decorum are becoming lost arts, so our "manners" are dictated by a faceless government bureaucrat so we can stack more and more people on top of each other.
I like living where my nearest neighbor is 3 to 5 miles away, and a trip to town is planned for because it is an all day event, not just a quick run to the store. When the parts house and grocery store and doctor are 60 miles away, and you have solid ice on the roads so they look like glass for a lot of the year, you learn to plan ahead so you only go to town once a week during the busy season when you need replacement parts or supplies, or once a month during the cold season.
I don't care about restaruants, in a former life I was trained as a chef, (cordon bleu), and with the better ingredients I get from my garden and livestock and wild game, I can make a meal far better than anything I can buy from a plastic bag that has been heated in a steamer.
It is always consideration that as we age and have more medical issues, not having close medical care is hazardous, and in the case of accidents when medical help can be an hour away, but if you plan ahead and learn first aid, CPR and take care of yourself on an ongoing basis, it isn't that difficult until you reach the age when a serious problem could make your issue life threatening.
Where I spend most of my time, you may not always get along with your neighbor as well as you would like to, but you don't see them very often anyway. Remember the old Montana saying, "Good fences make for good neighbors"
If they need help, I have no problem assisting them, but I don't socialize with them either if they are a problem, but it has been my experience that most folks that choose to live far from the amenities are usually far more relaxed and thoughtful than those that have the flock mentality of living in a city or town where their deepest conversational ability is to regurgitate the latest hyperbole from the last political add they saw.
Living in isolation isn't for everybody, and that's fine, for them.
For me, the High Lonesome is by far the best place to be. I will take a good dog, a good horse and a good rifle as much better company than all the witty sociopaths in the world combined.
The problem with Florida is that it's a peninsula; there's only one way out. Other than that, if you can stand the weather and undesirable elements (not much different from some of your Texas "pals") I'd rate it a C.
I can see why you missed it because in Wyoming it doesn't come up much, but Florida has more exit points than you can imagine if you know how to pilot a boat. :-)
That said, I am not personally enamored with Florida as a survival stead. Even with a boat as an option. For that I would choose a place where I could acquire land on a highly indented coastline like the Chesapeake or Maine.
Even close to a major population center, on a highly indented coastline, it is possible for folks to pass within a few miles of your property their entire lifetime and not know of your existence. You can be hidden from land and water and with one road in, you are highly defensible.
I think the issues regarding population are valid, but overstated. There are many places within 100 miles of the country's largest conurbation, NYC, that I would feel adequately insulated in. And honestly, if you can remain undetected/protected for a month in said location, the massive die-off in the cities would leave only a shadow of the original population.
This all supposes that there is a sudden, and largely complete breakdown of public services. If this happened, within two days, nearly the entire population of Manhattan Island would be at the shore scooping water into their mouths. The dysentery would take a third of the population within two weeks, strife and emigration from the city would take another big chunk. Most emigrants would be heading along major routes, most of foot after easily scavengeable gas was used up, etc. They wouldn't be heading up to nameless hill #4,928 and if they did, they would be weak, desperate perhaps, but weak.
In a rural area, I would be most worried about a local who knows every established dwelling, with warlord fantasies.
So, my points are these: (yes I get isolation is not for everyone):
Even people who claim they want true isolation and abhore people - they don't since the first thing they do is get friendly with their neighbors, help each other during calving season or build a fence or hay the field. Most also go to the local church for companionship etc. The true loners are far and few in between and are probably "strange" and "different" in the true senses of these words.
Too many survivalist folk are bent on the whole population density thing. Same with the self-sufficiency folk. You can have 20 acres 40 miles SE of Austin and grow enough veggies and fruits to feed an army. You could have solar in your house, biodiesel, enough hay to feed a few cattle and horses etc. In other words you could be self-sufficient within 20-40 miles of a large urban center. A lot of the self-sufficiency and survival stuff (including survivalblog.com) are outlets for zealotry (whether it is "anti big government" or "anti tree huggers" or religion based or whatever) and someone is making a living doing that - instead of sitting in a cubicle for 9 hours a day or welding pipes for 12 hours a day, they get to sit and scour maps and data and brainstorm about whether a hill is better than a valley to defend in a case of a SHTF scenario. The "other" folks who benefit from this are realtors....
In any case, I myself agree with a lot of sentiment in this thread - however, we got to be honest sometimes
Plus, let's face it: 80 acres in Montana can set you back SERIOUS money these days.
So, my points are these: (yes I get isolation is not for everyone):
Even people who claim they want true isolation and abhore people - they don't since the first thing they do is get friendly with their neighbors, help each other during calving season or build a fence or hay the field. Most also go to the local church for companionship etc. The true loners are far and few in between and are probably "strange" and "different" in the true senses of these words.
Plus, let's face it: 80 acres in Montana can set you back SERIOUS money these days.
OD
It depends on where you are in Montana as far as the price goes, the land in the Western 1/3, the "pretty" part is priced as a retreat for the rich and shameless, but the other 2/3rds don't meet the Discovery Channel definition of what open land should look like, so is far cheaper. I have seen 160 acre pieces in central or eastern Montana for as little as $60K.
I agree, humans are herd animals and most don't do well without a lot of interaction with others, but you only brand calves once a year, and ship once a year so you will see your neighbors twice a year times the number that help you and you help, so say 10 or 12 times a year you see your neighbors?
Building fence is a one time thing if you do it right, then you simply ride the line to check for broken wires or saggers. Not a real social endeavor.
With modern machinery, you don't need your neighbors help as you swath the hay, (by yourself) bale the hay, (by yourself) and use the stacker to put the hay up, again it is just you, your tractor and your stacker.
Personally, I haven't been to church in probably 25 years, (they are far too liberal these days and don't follow the Word as written), but I agree that church in a small community is a gathering place for potlucks, and activities for people to socialize at, and usally have very little to do with religion.
Just because you prefer to live your life your way and not the way imposed upon you by someone else's version of how you should live doesn't make you strange or different, it makes you You. An individual person not just a shadow conforming to the masses version of what you should wear, what tv shows you should watch, or what candidate for office is the proper one to vote for to be in the "In Crowd".
Individuals make their own choices, live their own way and make their life the best they can for THEM not for everybody else.
I don't care what they do on their side of the fence as long as they don't effect my stock or me, and they shouldn't care what I do unless it directly effects them.
It used to be called "live and let live". But now, everybody wants to be able to tell you what you can grow or raise, or if you can paint your house a color that they don't approve of, or that you don't keep your lawn mowed to their specifications.
Covenents and Homeowner Associations are the leading cause of incivility among neighbors in my views.
I don't care how others choose to live, their business. I just want to have the same courtisy extended to me and just leave me the heck alone.
Living like this is not for everybody, and should be a consideration when looking for someplace to feel safe because a lot of places on the map don't have a lot of options for eating out or buying supplies.
Not everybody can fabricate their own repairs or build their own homes and buildings or fix the plumbing or raise enough food to live on.
Where you locate is just as serious because you may not be able to handle being shut in for several months of arctic weather or extreme heat.
It is more work to grow gardens in areas that are dryer or with short growing seasons. If you aren't a big meat eater, more temperate areas are a far better choice because the dry areas will raise cattle and sheep and goats well, so your diet tends to a more protein based instead of carb based diet.
Simple seperation from large population centers is only one facet of the equation.
The best state to live in is the one that works best for you.
I can see why you missed it because in Wyoming it doesn't come up much, but Florida has more exit points than you can imagine if you know how to pilot a boat. :-)
During the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina people moving around by boat were routinely stopped by police and disarmed. In the ocean there would be the Coast Guard and other military elements waiting to do the same. I wouldn't consider it.
Give me the cold country with few people. But I don't want farm country where people have been there for generations and know each other. I want places where the social misfits like me have fled and happily sit in their survival retreats enjoying the isolation.
During the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina people moving around by boat were routinely stopped by police and disarmed. In the ocean there would be the Coast Guard and other military elements waiting to do the same. I wouldn't consider it.
Give me the cold country with few people. But I don't want farm country where people have been there for generations and know each other. I want places where the social misfits like me have fled and happily sit in their survival retreats enjoying the isolation.
Yet you keep coming back to talk to us here (I like talking to you by the way!). You have successfully used technology and your previous success in the busy world to isolate yourself later on in life. That's kind of cheatin'
It depends on where you are in Montana as far as the price goes, the land in the Western 1/3, the "pretty" part is priced as a retreat for the rich and shameless, but the other 2/3rds don't meet the Discovery Channel definition of what open land should look like, so is far cheaper. I have seen 160 acre pieces in central or eastern Montana for as little as $60K.
I agree, humans are herd animals and most don't do well without a lot of interaction with others, but you only brand calves once a year, and ship once a year so you will see your neighbors twice a year times the number that help you and you help, so say 10 or 12 times a year you see your neighbors?
Building fence is a one time thing if you do it right, then you simply ride the line to check for broken wires or saggers. Not a real social endeavor.
With modern machinery, you don't need your neighbors help as you swath the hay, (by yourself) bale the hay, (by yourself) and use the stacker to put the hay up, again it is just you, your tractor and your stacker.
Personally, I haven't been to church in probably 25 years, (they are far too liberal these days and don't follow the Word as written), but I agree that church in a small community is a gathering place for potlucks, and activities for people to socialize at, and usally have very little to do with religion.
Just because you prefer to live your life your way and not the way imposed upon you by someone else's version of how you should live doesn't make you strange or different, it makes you You. An individual person not just a shadow conforming to the masses version of what you should wear, what tv shows you should watch, or what candidate for office is the proper one to vote for to be in the "In Crowd".
Individuals make their own choices, live their own way and make their life the best they can for THEM not for everybody else.
I don't care what they do on their side of the fence as long as they don't effect my stock or me, and they shouldn't care what I do unless it directly effects them.
It used to be called "live and let live". But now, everybody wants to be able to tell you what you can grow or raise, or if you can paint your house a color that they don't approve of, or that you don't keep your lawn mowed to their specifications.
Covenents and Homeowner Associations are the leading cause of incivility among neighbors in my views.
I don't care how others choose to live, their business. I just want to have the same courtisy extended to me and just leave me the heck alone.
Living like this is not for everybody, and should be a consideration when looking for someplace to feel safe because a lot of places on the map don't have a lot of options for eating out or buying supplies.
Not everybody can fabricate their own repairs or build their own homes and buildings or fix the plumbing or raise enough food to live on.
Where you locate is just as serious because you may not be able to handle being shut in for several months of arctic weather or extreme heat.
It is more work to grow gardens in areas that are dryer or with short growing seasons. If you aren't a big meat eater, more temperate areas are a far better choice because the dry areas will raise cattle and sheep and goats well, so your diet tends to a more protein based instead of carb based diet.
Simple seperation from large population centers is only one facet of the equation.
The best state to live in is the one that works best for you.
Almost everything you said is true, I am more playing devil's advocate than anything else (I do honestly think I could never survive in MT completely on my own).
Covenants were invented to protect what is being sold to you. When a piece of virgin land becomes the picturesque gated community of 20+ acre parcels on "what is still a working ranch where you can also see the unobstructed sky at night since our community is a Class blah-blah Dark Sky community" - these parcels cost insane amounts of money. When someone spends that kind of money on a parcel they want to know that some idiot will not buzz all day next to them on an ATV, drink and shoot the wildlife and generally make a total inconsiderate ass out of themselves. In the "good ole'" times that jackass would be warned, beat and shot on the third strike and, believe me, if there was a law saying it is OK to do that I am sure people would be more polite to each other. However, supposedly we live in a "civilized society" so that kind of a jackass (and I apologize to the animal here for using its good name) is kept under control via covenants.
OD
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(Not to mention the fact that only sparsely populated areas get a full view of the night sky anymore!)
. There is a lot of swamp in FL, LA etc. that you would not normally want to live in...
), I chose Walsh County, North Dakota--even though the population density is a bit on the high side for me. But the cold climate makes up for that disadvantage. And it's not because I want to hunker down and wait for the world to end. It's because I would eventually have moved to a place like that anyway. 
The rest of the year I traipse around in the woods, swatting deer flies, wishing it were winter.
