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The Upstate is just multinodal in nature, similar to the Triad and Triangle CSAs in NC, whereas Columbia, Charleston, and Charlotte are all centered on one city. That's basically the gist of it.
Totally agree, that's why I said when we started this it's nothing wrong won't it or saying ones better than the other, just different. The Triad is a great example of what Upstate SC is, and Cola is right both Greenville and Spartanburg are very self sufficient and if I'm not mistaken prior to the BMW growth spurt, Both cities were basically on the same level and Spartanburg had the opportunity to step up and grow but didn't want to so Greenville came to the plate and developed. I know I remember there being a big spat over the Airport trying to fight over calling it Greenville Spartanburg or Spartanburg Greenville. I think this would have really hurt the upstate if this had happened because if Spartanburg took off and became the primary city, anything west of Greenville would never be lumped into the Csa.
Haha, wait a minute, I want to touch more on whoever tried to call Aloft a high end hotel????
The one here is in North Charleston, off Montague Avenue, which is a rough part of town. A hooker got murdered across the street from there this year. Its a known drug area. Yes, it's near Tanger and the Coliseum, but, they too are in a rough city.
Anyone wanting to stay at high end hotels will be in downtown or South Mount Pleasant.
Not at Aloft in North Chuck haha! Maybe Alofts outside of here are different though.
Also, I saw someone saying that the I-85 stretch from the NC to GA lines around Gville was about 105 miles, and that their CSA includes all that?
Not to mention.......Charleston's 4.5 million tourists, and Savannah's reported 6.5 million tourists....not to mention Hilton Heads large surge of tourists.
If the 100 mile rule is used, then the Charleston/Beaufort/Savannah area's total population, plus about 13 million tourists, would probably beat Greenvilles.
Haha, wait a minute, I want to touch more on whoever tried to call Aloft a high end hotel????
The one here is in North Charleston, off Montague Avenue, which is a rough part of town. A hooker got murdered across the street from there this year. Its a known drug area. Yes, it's near Tanger and the Coliseum, but, they too are in a rough city.
Anyone wanting to stay at high end hotels will be in downtown or South Mount Pleasant.
Not at Aloft in North Chuck haha! Maybe Alofts outside of here are different though.
Also, I saw someone saying that the I-85 stretch from the NC to GA lines around Gville was about 105 miles, and that their CSA includes all that?
Not to mention.......Charleston's 4.5 million tourists, and Savannah's reported 6.5 million tourists....not to mention Hilton Heads large surge of tourists.
If the 100 mile rule is used, then the Charleston/Beaufort/Savannah area's total population, plus about 13 million tourists, would probably beat Greenvilles.
Just to be devil's advocate haha!
Since when did Savannah have 6.5 million tourists?
"In 2006, the Savannah Area Convention & Visitors Bureau reported over 6.85 million visitors to the city during the year. By 2011, the Bureau reported that the number of visitors the city attracted increased to 12.1 million"
That was a 2006 number. It actually says 12 million in 2011. Take it for what its worth.
Charleston reports 4.5 million.
Both cities have a far larger human presence than their actual residential population suggests.
Corporations use CMSA for retail location, funny, guess the trade area means nothing. I am sure Apple looked at Gaffney's stats when looking to locate at Haywood. Had nothing to do with available space or Simon packaging space at lower level malls with A list malls like Southpark. Of course, if you are suggesting Greenville is a superior market, explain higher income and education levels in Columbia.......yep, once again your hatred of Columbia distorts logic, sad. Many many factors go into site location, CMSA is low on the list. And if it is that important, that is exactly why you need to understand the makeup and driver of the numbers, I hope you aren't in business, that is basic. Your suggestion that Greenville is such a superior market because they were first to land retailers reminds me of folks buying Internet stocks based on T12 levels. Heck, Greenville had Whole Foods & Southwest before Charlotte, is it a better market than Charlotte.....I did not realize how pitifully wrong your statement was on so many levels.
Aloft....premium, LOL, are you serious? Besides, ADR is higher in Columbia. The Westin and Hyatt are nice, so are the Marriott and Hilton. But, if you are defining Aloft as premium, I see why you think Hyatt is high end.
Southwest Airlines, who cares. They are cutting seats at GSP and are no longer the "prized" catch, that is a terrible example.
So yes, Gsupstate, these numbers are meaningless unless they are in context, sad you can't understand.
The original post by gsupstate noted that in-demand companies like Whole Foods, Apple, Westin, and Southwest located in Greenville before Columbia, and that the heavier population in the upstate had something to do with this. How can you deny that it didn't? Nobody said that population is the only factor in these decision. But as I'm sure you know, for just about all of these in-demand businesses, the initial screening process requires that a minimum population threshold be met.
Then you mentioned Charlotte (again). Please, stop with the Charlotte comparisons! Regarding Greenville getting Whole Foods and Southwest before Charlotte, you frequently like to portray posters on here as using that to say that they think Greenville is a better market. I know it might be hard for you to hear, since you view Charlotte as so superior to other markets in the Carolinas, but the reality is this: the Greenville market was more appealing than the Charlotte market for both Whole Foods and Southwest when they made the decision to locate in Greenville. I know that with 100% certainty, because if that weren't true, they would have located in Charlotte first, and not Greenville.
Now before you flip out and start talking about how Charlotte is larger, more upscale, has better malls, better companies, better people, and basically better everything than Greenville, and how anyone who says that Greenville is a more appealing market than Charlotte is misinformed and ignorant, please realize that I am not saying this as a criticism of the market in Charlotte. I am merely stating that the requirements for Whole Foods and Southwest to enter a market - which I am sure are quite specific - were not met in Charlotte at that time. With regards to Whole Foods, we know that Charlotte has probably had the proper population density and income levels in at least one area of town for the last decade or so to meet Whole Foods's requirements to open a store. But what Charlotte might not have had was the right space within that area of interest. Greenville did, and Greenville's store opened first. Good for Greenville.
Regarding Southwest, I don't know why you are hating on them. Whether you like it or not, they are a desirable airline. They are routinely the only airline to actually make a profit most years. I know you're proud of US Airways (AKA US Scare-ways) since CLT is one of their hubs, and that's great, but they are probably the worst airline with regard to on-time flights and customer service. Now that Southwest has finally started offering service to CLT, maybe the folks at US Airways will take notice of how well an airline can perform.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColaClemsonFan11
Well I know a big reason Greenville has received stores before Columbia is that because Columbia sprawls out so far and has different major shopping areas that are not central to all areas of the city unlike Greenville where the city itself doesn't sprawl out and everything is close to each other and is centrally located halfway between Anderson and Spartanburg so your able to pull that market.
So let me get this straight. Columbia doesn't get stores because it's so spread out, yet others here keep saying that the upstate CSA population numbers shouldn't count because the area is so spread out without a dominant metro area. Then how does Greenville keep getting such great retailers, hotels, and restaurants to locate in the area - often times before such amazing metros like Charlotte gets them?
Haha, wait a minute, I want to touch more on whoever tried to call Aloft a high end hotel????
The one here is in North Charleston, off Montague Avenue, which is a rough part of town. A hooker got murdered across the street from there this year. Its a known drug area. Yes, it's near Tanger and the Coliseum, but, they too are in a rough city.
Anyone wanting to stay at high end hotels will be in downtown or South Mount Pleasant.
Not at Aloft in North Chuck haha! Maybe Alofts outside of here are different though.
Also, I saw someone saying that the I-85 stretch from the NC to GA lines around Gville was about 105 miles, and that their CSA includes all that?
Not to mention.......Charleston's 4.5 million tourists, and Savannah's reported 6.5 million tourists....not to mention Hilton Heads large surge of tourists.
If the 100 mile rule is used, then the Charleston/Beaufort/Savannah area's total population, plus about 13 million tourists, would probably beat Greenvilles.
Just to be devil's advocate haha!
Number of miles is arbitrary. It's all about commuting patterns and they are practically nonexistent between the Savannah area and Charleston. They are present, however, in the Upstate counties which is why it is a CSA.
The original post by gsupstate noted that in-demand companies like Whole Foods, Apple, Westin, and Southwest located in Greenville before Columbia, and that the heavier population in the upstate had something to do with this. How can you deny that it didn't? Nobody said that population is the only factor in these decision. But as I'm sure you know, for just about all of these in-demand businesses, the initial screening process requires that a minimum population threshold be met.
Then you mentioned Charlotte (again). Please, stop with the Charlotte comparisons! Regarding Greenville getting Whole Foods and Southwest before Charlotte, you frequently like to portray posters on here as using that to say that they think Greenville is a better market. I know it might be hard for you to hear, since you view Charlotte as so superior to other markets in the Carolinas, but the reality is this: the Greenville market was more appealing than the Charlotte market for both Whole Foods and Southwest when they made the decision to locate in Greenville. I know that with 100% certainty, because if that weren't true, they would have located in Charlotte first, and not Greenville.
Now before you flip out and start talking about how Charlotte is larger, more upscale, has better malls, better companies, better people, and basically better everything than Greenville, and how anyone who says that Greenville is a more appealing market than Charlotte is misinformed and ignorant, please realize that I am not saying this as a criticism of the market in Charlotte. I am merely stating that the requirements for Whole Foods and Southwest to enter a market - which I am sure are quite specific - were not met in Charlotte at that time. With regards to Whole Foods, we know that Charlotte has probably had the proper population density and income levels in at least one area of town for the last decade or so to meet Whole Foods's requirements to open a store. But what Charlotte might not have had was the right space within that area of interest. Greenville did, and Greenville's store opened first. Good for Greenville.
Regarding Southwest, I don't know why you are hating on them. Whether you like it or not, they are a desirable airline. They are routinely the only airline to actually make a profit most years. I know you're proud of US Airways (AKA US Scare-ways) since CLT is one of their hubs, and that's great, but they are probably the worst airline with regard to on-time flights and customer service. Now that Southwest has finally started offering service to CLT, maybe the folks at US Airways will take notice of how well an airline can perform.
So let me get this straight. Columbia doesn't get stores because it's so spread out, yet others here keep saying that the upstate CSA population numbers shouldn't count because the area is so spread out without a dominant metro area. Then how does Greenville keep getting such great retailers, hotels, and restaurants to locate in the area - often times before such amazing metros like Charlotte gets them?
I largely agree. I don't think there's an exact formula out there that retailers use when deciding where to locate, but population and available space are definitely part of the equation. But I will say that some of these moves do leave you scratching your head.
Greenville's urbanized area has an sub-area within it that is more homogeneous with more people at the income level trendy national chains look for. Columbia's sub-areas (note sub-areas - plural) that are at the same income level don't hit the critical mass of potential shoppers at the same time Greenville's area does.
Within the realm of metro areas or MSA's, Greenville's may be more spread out than Columbia's, but there's still that sweet spot within Greenville's overall area that hits the critical mass number with the right income level before any of Columbia's areas hit it. That's why the trendy national chains always end up saying once they have announced or started construction in Columbia that they have looked for the right spot for a decade. As more and more people reside in the two MSAs' sweet spots, more and more trendy national chains pay attention. Shop proud; shop local.
Greenville has the largest MSA and the largest CSA located entirely in the state of SC. Simple fact, and a fact that will make this thread go on for PAGES and PAGES simply because many fragile egos can not handle that fact.
Start reading back through and certain posters are starting to argue against their own original argument in an attempt to spin facts and or "win". Too funny, really.
Facts are facts, Greenville is both the largest MSA and largest CSA located entirely in SC.
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