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Evidently the Chinese think the rest of the world is either blind, stupid ,or both. If the IOC does not look into the blantant cheating on the part of the Chinese Government for falsifying the birth records of these obvious children they presented as WOMEN I say tell the IOC to shove it and boycott the games for good.
The same goes for the cheating judges from China as well. They blatantly cheated in judging the women's vault finals and in the shooting competition allowing a Chinese contestant a hit when it was an obvious miss. The Chinese man won the bronze....In baseball the USA VS China, Americans were hit by no less than 6 pitches. Fed up with it one American took out the catcher in a throw to the plate ....and deservedly so! The Chinese can't even play baseball without being nasty little bast@&ds. What do you expect from these people anyway??? China may put on a pretty face for a few weeks but it remains a third world communist heII hole. I just wish we would stop buying EVERYTHING from them. They are a nasty country and we should not deal with them in any way.
Evidently the Chinese think the rest of the world is either blind, stupid ,or both. If the IOC does not look into the blantant cheating on the part of the Chinese Government for falsifying the birth records of these obvious children they presented as WOMEN I say tell the IOC to shove it and boycott the games for good.
The same goes for the cheating judges from China as well. They blatantly cheated in judging the women's vault finals and in the shooting competition allowing a Chinese contestant a hit when it was an obvious miss. The Chinese man won the bronze....In baseball the USA VS China, Americans were hit by no less than 6 pitches. Fed up with it one American took out the catcher in a throw to the plate ....and deservedly so! The Chinese can't even play baseball without being nasty little bast@&ds. What do you expect from these people anyway??? China may put on a pretty face for a few weeks but it remains a third world communist heII hole. I just wish we would stop buying EVERYTHING from them. They are a nasty country and we should not deal with them in any way.
I think YOU should stop buying anything from them or dealing with them in any way. You have no control over this "NASTY" country, what THEY think or over other people who may choose to buy things from them or deal with them, but YOU have control over what you do, what you buy, what you watch on TV and WHAT YOU WRITE. It might make you feel better.
Last edited by Bob The Builder; 08-19-2008 at 01:28 AM..
If it can be established that the girls are in fact under aged, then the medals should be stripped PERIOD. All this speculation is BS. The Chinese have a pool of 1.3 billion to select from. And they don't select the big girls to do gymnastics. Our kids just play video games and hang out at the mall. Only the rich kids or the parents who are really willing to sacrifice allow their kids to participate in this level of sports.
That's the thing, Bob. You can't prove it unless IOC is willing to launch a full blown investigation, and IOC already said they'll accept the girls' passports as proof of their age, and that's that.
There were several Chinese official websites that posted each gymnast's short bio, including their age, which apparently were posted for previous non Olympic related gymnastics competitions. The ages listed for these girls were anywhere from 11 - 14 years old. Then these websites mysteriously disappeared as soon as people started questioning these girls' age. This hardly helps China from being 'speculated'. I also wanted to point out the scoring system by the judges. If you watch the gymnastics competition dilligently like I do, you can't help but scratch your head confusedly at some of the scores given to the Chinese gymnasts. In anycase, I'm glad Liukin and Johnson performed as well as they did, and with grace too.
But, I also read that falsifyng age was something that's done quite regularly by Romania and Russia back in their heyday in gymnastics. Ironically, it was the Romanian coach who first raised the question (loudly, if I might add) about the Chinese gymnasts' true age. I guess it takes a faker to recognize one
That's the thing, Bob. You can't prove it unless IOC is willing to launch a full blown investigation, and IOC already said they'll accept the girls' passports as proof of their age, and that's that.
There were several Chinese official websites that posted each gymnast's short bio, including their age, which apparently were posted for previous non Olympic related gymnastics competitions. The ages listed for these girls were anywhere from 11 - 14 years old. Then these websites mysteriously disappeared as soon as people started questioning these girls' age. This hardly helps China from being 'speculated'. I also wanted to point out the scoring system by the judges. If you watch the gymnastics competition dilligently like I do, you can't help but scratch your head confusedly at some of the scores given to the Chinese gymnasts. In anycase, I'm glad Liukin and Johnson performed as well as they did, and with grace too.
But, I also read that falsifyng age was something that's done quite regularly by Romania and Russia back in their heyday in gymnastics. Ironically, it was the Romanian coach who first raised the question (loudly, if I might add) about the Chinese gymnasts' true age. I guess it takes a faker to recognize one
As I said in another post. I have friends who have a son on the USA fencing team. One data sheet has him at 6ft 4in, he is now listed at 6ft. I met him. He is 5ft 10in.
If the IOC does not investigate, that is on the IOC and not on the Chinese. The rules say 16 is the required age, the rules also say the IOC has the final word. Who are we to pick and choose which rules are followed and which aren't?
We are supposedly a country that believes in the presumption of innocence. We are not acting like that is the case. We either stand behind it or not. To change that presumption to apply only to those you deem "friends" would be cheating.
So are they presumed innocent or not? Are we going to get caught up in cherry picking the rules?
Last edited by Bob The Builder; 08-19-2008 at 02:39 AM..
I don't understand how "falsifying age was something that's done quite regularly by Romania and Russia back in their heyday in gymnastics" seeing how the age restriction is a pretty new rule. It was no secret for instance that Nadia Comenici was 14 at the Montreal games; in fact that was part of her "mystique" before it became clear that the the increasingly complex acrobatics that were becoming part of the sport were more easily performed by girls whose bodies had not reached maturity yet. The 1976 games is when we first started seeing serious changes in the complexity of gymnastics routines. That said, it's Olga Korbut in 1972 who portended how complex (and frankly dangerous) gymnastics would become in the future and how young world-class gymnasts would become, since at age 17 she was considered young for an Olympic gymnast back then.
What gets me about all of this is not just that the Chinese girls are cheating but that they're doing it with the complicity of the state. That's how much pride China has tied up in the success of their athletes -- that it's not merely the athletes but the state itself that is so desperate to prove something that they're willing to openly cheat to prove it, and apparently without any hint of irony. And it's another piece of ammo to those who have said all along that China should never have been awarded the games.
And this isn't the only example of poor sportsmanship from China in these games either. In yesterday's China/USA baseball matchup, no less than 5 American batters got drilled with fastballs, including one who had to be rushed to the hospital after taking one right in the head. They're lucky we don't send our MLB stars to the Olympics or that pitcher probably would have gone to the hospital himself.
[quote=Drover;4912158
What gets me about all of this is not just that the Chinese girls are cheating but that they're doing it with the complicity of the state. That's how much pride China has tied up in the success of their athletes -- that it's not merely the athletes but the state itself that is so desperate to prove something that they're willing to openly cheat to prove it, and apparently without any hint of irony. And it's another piece of ammo to those who have said all along that China should never have been awarded the games.[/quote]
Again. What about the presumption of innocence?
How would we like it if the Chinese started a rumor that Phelps is doping with some undetectable new drug. We have a multi Billion dollar research industry and I am certain we can come up with something undetectable.
Spare me your "presumption of innocence." It's obvious on its face that some of those girls aren't even close to 16. I don't have to put a dog on trial to prove that it's not a cat. Even the Chinese state didn't claim they were of age until they wanted them to compete in the Olympics. Then suddenly it was state-run agencies that changed their reported ages.
If China has any evidence other than his performance that Phelps is cheating, I'd like to see it. The evidence that the Chinese gymnastics team is cheating is standing there right in front of all of us, and corroborated by no less than the Chinese state itself until its own official line changed.
Spare me your "presumption of innocence." It's obvious on its face that some of those girls aren't even close to 16. I don't have to put a dog on trial to prove that it's not a cat. Even the Chinese state didn't claim they were of age until they wanted them to compete in the Olympics. Then suddenly it was state-run agencies that changed their reported ages.
If China has any evidence other than his performance that Phelps is cheating, I'd like to see it. The evidence that the Chinese gymnastics team is cheating is standing there right in front of all of us, and corroborated by no less than the Chinese state itself until its own official line changed.
Ok. No presumption of innocence. I understand now.
If there is wrong doing, then it is on the IOC to take away the medals.
I never said the China is accusing the USA of cheating.
Ok. No presumption of innocence. I understand now.
Not when the contrary evidence is open and obvious, no.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob The Builder
If there is wrong doing, then it is on the IOC to take away the medals.
Even if they don't (and they won't because they don't want a political battle), the cheating is so obvious that while the medals will "officially" stand, they will always do so under a cloud of doubt and cynicism. What's worse, that cloud will carry over into the next Olympic gymnastics contest too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob The Builder
I never said the China is accusing the USA of cheating.
But you are the one who proposed the hypothetical scenario.
Not when the contrary evidence is open and obvious, no.
NEW LEGAL STANDARD?
Which Section of evidence code is this?
Even if they don't (and they won't because they don't want a political battle), the cheating is so obvious that while the medals will "officially" stand, they will always do so under a cloud of doubt and cynicism. What's worse, that cloud will carry over into the next Olympic gymnastics contest too.
NO DUE PROCESS? Even the Chinese have trials.
But you are the one who proposed the hypothetical scenario.
And Posing a hypothetical subject me to....? That is in our new legal system.
Last edited by Bob The Builder; 08-19-2008 at 04:21 AM..
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