Webster Grove or CWE for families? (Webster Groves: schools, good, urban)

[Dawn10am]

I grew up in suburbia and was really only allowed out by myself in the cul-de-sac across from our house, and only if there were other kiddies about. I can actually see the backs of the houses on Laclede form my apartment and they all have sizable backyards. One of them even has a play fort in it, which indicates that children live there.

[flynavyj]

Gotcha, during my childhood I know we spent tons of time outside. We were fortunate to live in a pretty large suburban community that had lots to walk to though. The neighborhood was built in the 1950's-70's and had at least 2 churches with grade schools attached, 2 public elementary schools, about 1200 homes, grocery stores, drug stores (great for penny candy), several fast food locations, a community pool, numerous parks, etc...As a result we spent plenty of time after school running around that neighborhood (as long as our rents knew who we were with), hitting up the pool, playing war in the woods, firework battles in the creekbed, walk to the baseball fields if we ran out of room in the cul-de-sac, and pickup football games against some of the other "rival" school kids...it was a pretty fantastic place to grow up, and in many ways reminds me of a childhood I hear of with older generations that often, the newer generations seem to be missing out on.

[aragx6]

^I probably spent just as much time as you outside. We had one of those sweet original Nintendos with the duck hunt but really only played it on rainy days. Once I was in middle school the stuff you mention above is the kind of stuff we did on our own -- we'd walk to Quik Trip in the summer and get those giant fountain sodas they'd have on sale. But when I was younger than that we were supposed to stay within a circle of about 3 houses around -- which took care of just about everyone I knew and was friends with anyway. We lived right next to a pond and a small wooded area and we had free reign of that and our cul-de-sac.

Because my mom was a teacher and was home with us all summer, we'd walk to get ice cream or ride our bikes to the park or to the pool with her just about everyday. Those times are the favorites of my childhood and I don't see that those things would be any different as a kid in the CWE as opposed to Webster or St. Charles.

I'm actually regularly saddened to hear how little time with their parents many kids had -- what activities you do is kind of ancillary; kids want time with their parents.

[AJohnston_STL]

I've only read the first 2 pages so I might be jumping the gun, but has anyone asked the OP about schools? The city's schools are abysmal, save for some magnet and charter options that I am not familiar enough with to comment on. The suburbs thrive vs. the city (this is merely fact - I am a suburbanite that is very pro-city) because of schools (and of course, crime). The Central West End is a great neighborhood but you have to consider what you are doing with your kids. Are you planning on sending them to private school or were you wanting to send them to public school?

[aragx6]

Originally Posted by AJohnston_STL

I've only read the first 2 pages so I might be jumping the gun, but has anyone asked the OP about schools? The city's schools are abysmal, save for some magnet and charter options that I am not familiar enough with to comment on. The suburbs thrive vs. the city (this is merely fact - I am a suburbanite that is very pro-city) because of schools (and of course, crime). The Central West End is a great neighborhood but you have to consider what you are doing with your kids. Are you planning on sending them to private school or were you wanting to send them to public school?

::raises hand:: I did!

I don't think the OP is ever coming back ...

[mike0421]

Originally Posted by scocar

So true. It's so hard to describe to people the difference between Phoenix and St. Louis if you haven't been to both. There are areas in the city limits of Phoenix that are far more suburban in feel, looks, and amenities than 80% of St. Louis county.

Little off topic, but great article about Phoenix 'downtown', think many regulars here will enjoy the read:
How to Build a Successful Downtown Stadium - Jobs & Economy - The Atlantic Cities

[aragx6]

^That was an interesting read. Perhaps it was in the study, but didn't make it's way into the article, but even in cases of these polycentric downtowns, of which Phoenix is a perfect example, where best would a stadium fit? If everyone is scattered they pretty much need a central spot. But I don't know much about Phoenix -- does it stretch out pretty evenly or is most develop in one direction or another? Makes me wistful for what Ball Park Village could be. Someday ...

[mike0421]

Originally Posted by aragx6

^That was an interesting read. Perhaps it was in the study, but didn't make it's way into the article, but even in cases of these polycentric downtowns, of which Phoenix is a perfect example, where best would a stadium fit? If everyone is scattered they pretty much need a central spot. But I don't know much about Phoenix -- does it stretch out pretty evenly or is most develop in one direction or another? Makes me wistful for what Ball Park Village could be. Someday ...

In lieu of Scocar answering, who is certainly more qualified as a former resident to answer, as opposed to me, as someone who is a frequent visitor to Phoenix, I will attempt to answer this question. It is my belief that the population density of the Phoenix area is indeed clustered adjacent to the major arterials, the interstates, I-10 and I-17, and in addition, to US-60, which preceded the interstates. Glendale and Mesa would comprise the 'exurbs' which are really cities in their own right, and a continum of Phoenix, with the most dense population east of airport just north of US-60 (Mesa/Tempe) then north of I-10 and southwest of US-60 on the Glendale side. Inside the I-10/I-17 rectangle, where the theoretical PLVI areas of Phoenix are, are in fact, at least in my opinion, not quite as dense as the aforementioned areas. Absolutely NONE of these places is pedestrian friendly. Around Arizona Cardinals Stadium, there has been an attempt to integrate businesses into the area, as well as the Coyotes hockey rink, but it's really kind of silly, a sham of sorts. Busch Stadium, incidentally, DEFINITELY falls more into the Denver category than Phoenix. The urban planning in this city, in spite of many proper criticisms, is still eons ahead of most other places, because at heart, this is a water and rail (pre-car) transporation era city. So the fundamentals of the infrastructure here are very solid, and the baseline in which to manage the city from is advantageous as a result.

[scocar]

Originally Posted by mike0421

Little off topic, but great article about Phoenix 'downtown', think many regulars here will enjoy the read:
How to Build a Successful Downtown Stadium - Jobs & Economy - The Atlantic Cities

Great read. Thanks Mike. At first I thought they were going to compare the two favorably, but they hit the nail on the head. I was so jealous after my first trip to Denver 4 years ago. Their downtown looked like what developers kept telling us our downtown was going to look like. There is no comparison. As a matter of fact the article actually downplayed how much more vibrant Denver downtown is to Phoenix.

One thing I think the article missed a little was the importance of Denver's light rail. I don't know when it came into existence in relation to Coors Field, but it's extremely convenient to get from any southern suburb to downtown Denver. The light rail is now up and running in Phoenix, but it only serves Tempe, a small part of Mesa, and Phoenix. If they had convenient light rail transportation to downtown, then they could build up downtown as an entertainment destination.

[scocar]

Originally Posted by aragx6

^That was an interesting read. Perhaps it was in the study, but didn't make it's way into the article, but even in cases of these polycentric downtowns, of which Phoenix is a perfect example, where best would a stadium fit? If everyone is scattered they pretty much need a central spot. But I don't know much about Phoenix -- does it stretch out pretty evenly or is most develop in one direction or another? Makes me wistful for what Ball Park Village could be. Someday ...

Definitely stretches out pretty evenly. Phoenix is very unique when compared to other metro areas that I've been too. Many of the suburbs, as well as Phoenix proper, still have hoards of undeveloped land that they annexed for future developments. To put it in perspective, imagine if most of Jefferson County was actually land that belonged to Phoenix, Affton, Mehlville, and Oakville. Phoenix Metro has this but on the north side not the south. So Glendale, Peoria, Scottdale, and Phoenix are all still growing. Their new areas look like O'Fallon, but their little downtowns (excluding Phoenix of course), look like Old Webster. And they all have pops well over 100,000 people.

In my opinion the downtown areas is the best place for a stadium. I disagree a little with the article as it seemed to somewhat imply that given the different urban footprints of the two locale's Denver was better suited for a downtown development. I think downtown Phoenix could have become an entertainment hotspot if more consideration was given to making it happen. Although the light rail is not something that could have happened overnight, I think it will make a big difference once it is full developed. But I think Phoenix planners just expected the growth to happen, without giving it much stimulation. This might have something to do with the overall political climate of the two areas. Maricopa County is predominantly Republican as is the state. So any tax increase gets voted down quickly.

The far west portion of Glendale is where the Arizona Cardinals stadium and Phoenix Coyotes arena is located. So the 4 pro teams are split with two being downtown (Suns and Dbacks), and the other 2 in Glendale. Going to an AZ Cardinals game, because it's a one day thing, is not a big deal no matter where you live. But it is almost an hour drive to get to get to the 2 Glendale arena's from the East Valley. And the East Valley has over 1 million people living in it. So imagine being a hockey fan that lives in Gilbert. It's tough to do.