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I hear a lot of talk about "segregation" in the St. Louis metro area, but I'm not sure I even understand what that means anymore. Back in the day segregation meant forcible separation by law, which was obviously a problem. But what's happening in North County is the result of voluntary migration patterns. Blacks from North City chose to move out to the northern suburbs the same way that whites chose to do so half a century ago. No one forced them to do that and no one is forcibly keeping them there. Why is that being labeled segregation?
Why shouldn't "the rest of us" (whatever that means) be expected to help improve the region's economy, schools, policing, and attitudes towards race? I think the real problem is that you see this as a "them" v. "the rest of us" story and that is what has led to the fractured governance and racial segregation in this region in the first place.
You don't seem to be tied to StL. Maybe you don't have any kids or grandchildren here and your husband is retiring so you can just leave the problems behind. But, if you were intending to stay in St. Louis or had loved ones here there would be great motivation to help out. The region is simply not going to succeed if so many of our citizens live in poverty and can't get a decent education. That was not true for a long time because of the insane economic expansion of the post-WW II years but reality has caught up with this country.
I won't denigrate the value of hard work and dedication, but there are some structural problems that have made things just too difficult on certain people. For example, see my link about Ferguson's financial reliance on tickets and warrants to generate fines and court costs. We can and should fix that.
Some of your points are actually well-taken; there are things we do agree on. I think where we part is that I do sense that same "guilt thing" coming from you that has worn me down.
When you say "great motivation to help out", what is it you are thinking? Give me examples (besides money) because I do want to help and I consider myself a very compassionate person. However, we already get 1/3 of what we make taken out, given right back to the government- which is funding many of these people's lives. We also give to various charities with both time and money.
I don't want to abandon my fellow man; that's not the type of person I am. But I would rather be around and help people who truly are doing the best they can for themselves first. You can't just keep throwing money at people. It doesn't work. They have to WANT more from themselves first.
I don't care if you are white, black, brown, or purple...if you see someone who is in need and is doing all they can for themselves, then help. But if they are taking advantage of those who get up and contribute- and doing nothing to better the situation, that's where I'm fed up. I am also sick of feeling we should be ashamed that we have what we worked and planned for with good decisions.
I hear a lot of talk about "segregation" in the St. Louis metro area, but I'm not sure I even understand what that means anymore. Back in the day segregation meant forcible separation by law, which was obviously a problem. But what's happening in North County is the result of voluntary migration patterns. Blacks from North City chose to move out to the northern suburbs the same way that whites chose to do so half a century ago. No one forced them to do that and no one is forcibly keeping them there. Why is that being labeled segregation?
There is de facto and de jure segregation. We're talking about de facto segregation. Much of the segregation has a deep history of actions that were not simply voluntary. We are seeing/living in the effects of that history.
St. Louis (I'm talking mainly about STL County) is largely segregated and all the ''bad people'' are in North St. Louis/North County. Many agree with the cop because they feel like he was ''putting an animal'' down.
But of course everyone sides with the cop until it is too late. When the chicken comes home to roost, suddenly people are ''outraged'' at Obama. I give up. Let the drones patrol your neighborhoods and some 10 year old is shot by ''technical error''.
There is de facto and de jure segregation. We're talking about de facto segregation. Much of the segregation has a deep history of actions that were not simply voluntary. We are seeing/living in the effects of that history.
I'm familiar with the concept of de facto segregation. What I don't understand is all of the guilt tripping of white people for it and blaming it on "racism," when it's probably due in large part to the fact that black people simply might want to live around each other.
This also ties in to my confusion about anti-gentrification arguments, which are part and parcel of the guilt tripping. On the one hand a lot of people b*** and moan about segregation, but then when white people start moving into a predominantly black area they freak out about "stealing their neighborhood" or whatever. It's like no matter what they do white people will always be the bad guys.
I'm familiar with the concept of de facto segregation. What I don't understand is all of the guilt tripping of white people for it and blaming it on "racism," when it's probably due in large part to the fact that black people simply might want to live around each other.
This also ties in to my confusion about anti-gentrification arguments, which are part and parcel of the guilt tripping. On the one hand a lot of people b*** and moan about segregation, but then when white people start moving into a predominantly black area they freak out about "stealing their neighborhood" or whatever. It's like no matter what they do white people will always be the bad guys.
Oh, you said you didn't understand what segregation means anymore. I think the concept of de facto segregation explains things excellently.
I'm not saying that black people don't want to live around one another. But I'm trying to explain that racist policies and racist social norms got us to a point where blacks and whites often lived in separate neighborhoods. That pattern is now hard to break and it has made white people generally less comfortable around black people (and maybe vice versa) in the StL area than in some other places. Although, it's a fairly widespread issue in the country. As anecdotes, I recall the black poster a while back who visited from out of town and who, while he or she liked StL very much, felt uncomfortable in some neighborhoods because they were getting stared at or double-taked (to make up a term). Recall the horrible comments from so many (but certainly not all) Francis Howell parents last fall over the school transfer issue. A black person I know who babysits white kids gets somewhat regular verbal abuse in a particular local suburb. It's too simplistic to simply deem current segregation the result of black people wanting to live by black people.
I'm curious as to some examples of "guilt-tripping." I don't really see it. Maybe you are projecting.
If the situation is viewed as the pivotal point for a "civil rights" movement and a picture of equality then it will survive and the region will benefit if not boom because of it. Many are already considering this as the beginning of a movement of a community demanding responsible policing.
Um, you should look at the history of what happened to other pivotal cities in the civil rights movement. Nearly all of them went into serious decline unfortunately.
Luzianne, you are like so many of us who "feel" we must "prove" we are not racist. Here are a couple of Condi Rice quotes.
“The only problem, of course, was that when the Founding Fathers said, ‘We the people,’ they didn’t mean me.” and this comment from her while visiting Gaza, “I feel your pain—I was raised as a black in Alabama!” Ms. Rice, creates the false narrative that feeds the whole racist canard. ALL cultures have some racism. We are told that to be proud or defend our American cultural is wrong. No wonder the black community is so inflamed. I am certain if we put forth an unapologetic intellectually principled argument, our racist country has spent trillions on the black population, made the poorest here wealthy compared to most in their native lands, and passed laws giving them equal protection. We need to stop the double standard on the race question. Here is Obama saying, “We are far stronger together than we could ever be on our own”. Could a Caucasian say that in America today? I know many good black Americans would appreciate and support white Americans who simply stated all that is good about us. It would be a very long list of achievements.
Whites believe that race-blindness is moral and race-consciousness is evil. To expose the pro-black, anti-white double standard accurately and tellingly, they would have to speak of themselves as white and speak of the unjustice that is being done collectively to whites. But whites believe that it is immoral and disgusting to speak of themselves as white, or even to think of themselves as white. Whites are thus incapable of pointing out nonwhites’ violation of the race-blind rule which the whites themselves religiously follow. In order to protect the race-blind rule which for whites is the highest principle of America, the whites must silently allow blacks to transgress the race-blind rule.
Here is another way of putting the problem: right-liberalism, defined as the white belief in treating people of all races and backgrounds as individuals and not as members of a group, no matter how different that group is from whites, leads instantly and inevitably to left-liberalism, defined as the unconditional surrender of whites as a group to nonwhites as groups.
Some of your points are actually well-taken; there are things we do agree on. I think where we part is that I do sense that same "guilt thing" coming from you that has worn me down.
When you say "great motivation to help out", what is it you are thinking? Give me examples (besides money) because I do want to help and I consider myself a very compassionate person. However, we already get 1/3 of what we make taken out, given right back to the government- which is funding many of these people's lives. We also give to various charities with both time and money.
I don't want to abandon my fellow man; that's not the type of person I am. But I would rather be around and help people who truly are doing the best they can for themselves first. You can't just keep throwing money at people. It doesn't work. They have to WANT more from themselves first.
I don't care if you are white, black, brown, or purple...if you see someone who is in need and is doing all they can for themselves, then help. But if they are taking advantage of those who get up and contribute- and doing nothing to better the situation, that's where I'm fed up. I am also sick of feeling we should be ashamed that we have what we worked and planned for with good decisions.
There is no "guilt thing" on my part. I feel fortunate, but not guilty. Maybe I've worked hard (that's debatable), but I've also received, and continue to receive, a ton of help from family and friends.
From reading your posts, I can't help but believe that you are sidetracked on the issue of people taking advantage of government social welfare programs. No doubt there is abuse there. But that doesn't have anything to do with some of the structural obstacles in the way of the poor and middle class in StL that I think can be fixed and give people a better shot.
For example, I explained that Ferguson derives a bunch of its revenue from court fines and fees mostly from piddly traffic violations. This has an outsize effect on the poor and middle class. If you've ever driven through north county or read the newspaper, you know how many municipalities are aggressive in traffic policing--so much so that the former StL County Police Chief publicly decried their tactics. Of course, they're aggressive because these municipalities have to fund their governments but have no other reliable source to make up for lost court revenue.
So why not push our elected officials to consolidate these municipalities thereby saving some money and keeping the police from hassling drivers making rolling right turns or trying to get to work? (And the north county municipalities are not the only guilty ones on this count). I'm not saying we need to consolidate everything into one right away. As an added benefit, we would reduce these battles among municipalities to keep and lure away businesses through tax incentives.
And it will take a major push from constituents, for the most powerful people live in municipalities that function very well for the most part or that are easily influenced because of the small nature of the local government.
While we are at consolidating, how about consolidating some school districts, too and getting them run by the competent ones. How many financial scandals have we seen involving school districts and overpaid, extraneous administrators? We should also adjust school funding so it is not so dependent on local property taxes. Again, this will take some doing as those who are happy with their district will complain that resources are going to some other place. But our region will go nowhere without a well-functioning school system.
Those are just a couple of things you could support.
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