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Administrators do not discipline students. The parents who are their children's friends do not discipline them either. If you as a teacher tries to change their behavior you will be left cold by the administrator; the parent and the kid will blame you or lie about you. You are in a no win situation. Most smart teachers become department coordinators so they can give themselves the AP or honors classes.
I went to a public college prep magnet school for grades 7-12. Students had 7 class periods a day. The teachers taught only 4 or 5 classes a day. This means that they had at least 2 class periods a day to do their planning and grading. With the exception of the 2 chorus teachers I had in 7th grade the teachers at my school seldom had more than 120 students, and in the upper grades the number was more like 80.
And my 9th grade civics teacher was so under-worked that he had time to start his own business on the side- he opened a retail store in a local shopping mall. And yes, he owned his Mercedes before he opened his own business.
So don't complain about how overworked public school teachers are because by real world standards they are not overworked.
I don't know how many responded to this except what was on the next page after this "tripe observation" of a school in 1984 as I don't have the inclination to keep reading this thread due to both sides trying to justify each other's opinions which is really sad to read. BUT I feel like I have to respond as this post is utterly ridiculous and to be honest, I do not believe it totally as I cannot see WHY a teacher would have 2-3 classes off, and the upper grade teachers having only 80 students as school boards even back then would know they were losing money. I am sorry, but I WANT PROOF as I do not buy it. The only thing close to this would be in Florida back in the 80's and part of the 90's, English teachers taught under the Gordon Rule that stated we could have no more than 100 students and would have 2 planning periods-one being to totally grade as we were to give and document at least one major writing assignment per week. And my kids wrote a lot and did improve.
FLASH BACK TO GET MORE OF AN OVERVIEW. In 1980's where I taught, more students behaved well and cooperated in doing their work as we teachers were given more freedom to do what we wanted to get them to learn (and good teachers did just that). Most of the parents backed up the teachers and together we worked together. Education was /was not really valued as its value really began slipping since the early 70's when the first boomers became parents (and to be honest, too many were not very good ones due to feminism and the "me" generation). I was not afraid to discipline a student for fear of my life. Testing was not the be all and end all but students did have to pass a state exam that was easier than today's FCAT, but it helped that it was given in the junior year rather than the sophomore year. There were no electronics to worry about except maybe a stray CD player that one could easily see and tell the student to put away. Cheating consisted of copying homework, CLiff Notes and maybe looking at another's test paper.
FLASH FORWARD to now. Two years ago I had 202 students and last year 140 due to the Florida amendment which will no longer be in effect meaning I am probably facing 180 this next year in my 6 classes. Besides being held accountable for students learning the curriculum (and we are on the Proficiency Model which means students are given the chance to re-learn until they pass which means I give my time during lunch and after school for this to happen) that involves not only reading, writing, critical thinking, researching, vocabulary and speaking, I must contend with these state tests that not only must our students pass to graduate, but are also used in our school grade and will soon be used for our evaluations. The time it takes for me to prepare a lesson is about 3 times longer due to the net and what is "out there". Lessons need to be entertaining and "enhanced" by electronics and searching the web for information that can be used and made into something "entertaining" takes TIME not counting the time it takes to learn a program; I also have to make sure these lessons are not that long due to shorter attention spans. I also cannot give my students as much writing as I did before as I just don't have time to grade it all. If I discipline a student today, I could get cursed at, hit, or worse byt the student. A parent could call the principal (they don't call me first) wanting to know why I was picking on his/her child, and if it dealt with cheating some parents will tell me point blank the "angel" was NOT cheating even though I have the highlighted net text as proof. I now have to contend with ipods, iphones, mobile phones. AND these are NOT only used for cheating (our last valedictorian had been discovered taking a picture of a test and sending it to his friends who were taking it later..and I caught a student taking a photo of the quiz I had on the board; and how many text messages are missed by teachers??), but are also keeping students today from focusing on learning as texting and the immediacy of it hold their attention more so than anything I have ever experienced in my life (and the are not allowed at our school except during lunch as of last year thank god). Teachers have told me tales of students playing video games and watching movies on their phones as well instead of partaking what was going on in class (and it is NOT due to what the teacher was doing was boring... these kids DO NOT CARE!). And Ipods are making our students less social and is killing the little concentration that they have. And besides all this, our privacy is in danger for kids will video us at any point in time or a fight and within seconds, it is up on Youtube. And finally, the cheating....copy and paste; buy an essay, take a photo of the test.... and everything inbetween. Cheating is just the easiest and most acceptable way to get that grade and not do any of the work.
SO that is the difference between the "senario" of the post I quoted and that of a teacher today. AND because of this along with the attitudes of the masses, more federal and state interference in what I do and how I do it (and NOT listening to me in that we need to TOTALLY revamp our educational system to be more like that in Europe), it is enough to tell my administration that I will be retiring after 34 years this next June. AND I am just sad that I brought my son into this once noble field.
PS.
Teaching is a different field unlike any other, and one cannot understand until one has taught. Teaching is something that really cannot be measured, for how can one measure a book dedication down the road, or the tons of former students who became teachers due to you, or those letters/emails that tells us that we were right and that what they learned in class either helped them in college or in life or even just made them a better person??? Teachers are more than just "teachers": they are at times a surrogate mothers, mediators, motivators, cheerleaders, counselors, nurses and confidants. And how many in the "real world" could do all of this, OP???
Last edited by Sagitarrius48; 07-31-2011 at 08:58 PM..
Reason: added ps
I can't find anywhere in this thread where I blamed you for anything, and neither can you. All I've said, multiple times, and I'll repeat it once again for your benefit, is that teachers are not unassailable. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't, then don't. But you know damn well there are crappy teachers out there, just as incompetent governments (to use your mostest favoritest analogy) can very well draft an army brimming with crappy soldiers. The fact that someone else made a poor decision about putting and keeping them in that position doesn't make them any less crappy at what they do. It's simply not possible for a systemically flawed system to have one miraculous stratum of heroes sandwiched between layers of incompetence.
Crappy teachers aren't the problem.
We have much bigger fish to fry than the few crappy teachers who are out there. And they are few and far between.
Administrators do not discipline students. The parents who are their children's friends do not discipline them either. If you as a teacher tries to change their behavior you will be left cold by the administrator; the parent and the kid will blame you or lie about you. You are in a no win situation. Most smart teachers become department coordinators so they can give themselves the AP or honors classes.
This is one I didn't count on going into teaching. I knew the workload would be heavy but disrespectful and misbehaving students as the norm wasn't in the plan. BTDT and it is IMPOSSIBLE to run a classroom when the kids know you have no leverage. Even if I gave a bad grade, chances are administrators would change it.
It's amazing and scary how much power the kids have these days. All it takes is one lie backed up by a friend and my career is done. All it takes is one parent who thinks their child was treated unfairly and my career is done.
I wish I'd seen this change before becomming a teacher. I would have gotten a PhD and taught at the university level and I'm not even sure that's safe seeing some of the things I've seen. It seems kids are never wrong....teachers are. If a child fails, it's the teacher's fault. If the classroom is disrupted....it's the teacher's fault. Heck, I was told that it was my fault a student tried to hit me. I was told not to make him mad because he has anger management issues.
I try not to talk about this aspect of teaching because it is the one that will, ultimately, drive me out of teaching. Someone has to have the power to discipline these kids and they need to use it.
We have much bigger fish to fry than the few crappy teachers who are out there. And they are few and far between.
Yeah yeah, I know. Teachers are miraculously the one faultless, guiltless, blameless layer in a system that is otherwise mucked-up from top to bottom. For the record you already responded to that post 6 months ago and didn't really add anything new by responding to it yet again.
Yeah yeah, I know. Teachers are miraculously the one faultless, guiltless, blameless layer in a system that is otherwise mucked-up from top to bottom. For the record you already responded to that post 6 months ago and didn't really add anything new by responding to it yet again.
You're picking at one single thorn when you are tangled in a briar bush!
If you took every crappy teacher out of the system today, what will you have fixed? How much better will education be?
Crappy teachers aren't the problem. They are few and far between. There are, probably, one or two in every school (there are way more crappy workers in other fields as those who can't handle teaching flush early) but they are the minority by far and there aren't enough of them for them to be responsible for any significant portion of what ails education today!!!
You are so focused on one single tree, you can't see the forest surrounding it. If you eliminated every crappy teacher today, you'd see little impact on the quality if education in this country because crappy teachers aren't the biggest part of the problem by any means.
Let's see, in 18 years of school, I can, honestly, say, I had 2 crappy teachers. That's 2 out of 42. One did some serious damage, and yes, I'd have been better off if I'd never met her (she's the teacher who decided that since I scored so high on my IQ test I should have all the answers and no questions when I was the kid with all the questions and no answers.). However, while she was a really bad teacher for me to have, I can't say the same for my classmates who scored in the normal range. While I can say she had a negative impact on my educaiton, I can't say she negatively impacted education itself nor can I say that the next teacher down the road was unable to undo any damage she did. For me, it took many years but my problems were unusual. I was the smart kid with the questions not the smart kid with the answers. My intelligence manifested itself in an unusual way. The other bad teacher I had was biding time until retirement and had, simply, stopped teaching. Yes, I would have learned more in Health class if I'd had a different teacher but I fail to see how this one teacher impacted the quality of my overall education.
Contrast with the good teachers I had. I had... Mrs. Hielman...Mr. Keebler...Mrs. Goode...Mrs. Amato....Mr. Paschenan...Mr. Pfieffer... I had six who stand out as having been good teachers when I was in school. I, probably, had more but, as a student, didn't recognize them as being good teachers. They did their job. So, roughly 5% of the teaches I had were crappy, for me (one was just crappy for all the other may or may not have been for others) and 15% were good teachers. The remaining 80% were decent and did their job. The only way the 5% have an overwhelming impact is if the 95% have no impact. Not that I'm protecting bad teachers but I think the impact of having one is cushioned by the other 95% so I don't think you'd change much if you did manage to fire every bad teacher today. Unfortunately, efforts to make it easier to fire bad teachers also make it easier to fire good teachers. I would hope the impact of a good teacher lasts longer than that of a bad teacher. I can name all of my good teachers but only one of my two bad teachers.
So the question really is what portion of what ails education is due to crappy teachers??? Answer that question and we'll know whether we should be attacking this thorn while ignoring the rest of the briar bush we're tangled in. I don't believe crappy teachers are anywhere near one of the biggest problems in education. I don't like them and I think administrators should to their homework to get rid of them but I don't think the system needs to change because of them. Administrators have the power now to fire them if they do their job. IF crappy teachers are a problem, the real problem is the administrators who don't do their homework so they can be fired NOT the crappy teachers themselves.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 08-01-2011 at 06:29 AM..
You're picking at one single thorn when you are tangled in a briar bush!
If you took every crappy teacher out of the system today, what will you have fixed? How much better will education be?
Crappy teachers aren't the problem. They are few and far between. There are, probably, one or twe in every school (there are way more crappy workers in other fields as those who can't handle teaching flush early) but they are the minority by far and there aren't enough of them for them to be responsible for any significant portion of what ails education today!!!
We've already done this dance, dear. Find a new partner.
One problem with this debate is that the public lives in la-la land. People ASSume that getting rid of a crappy teacher means you'll get a good teacher in their place when you're more likely to replace them with an adequate teacher. Like every profession out there, few of the people working in education are stellar at what they do. Unfortunately, movies glorify the really good teachers and that is the standard teachers are held to. Good doesn't seem to be good enough in teaching (Which is why good teachers are in danger when you make it easier to fire bad ones. Unfortunately, good pales when is is compared to great.). People want great. The problem is, the majority of teachers are just ok.
IF we could replace every crappy teacher out there with a stellar teacher today, yes, we'd make an impact. However, they are more likely to be replaced by novice or just ok teachers because there are more of them. So, the impact of replacing every crappy teacher today wouldn't be what people think it would be. Unfortunately, people are stuck picking at this particular thorn and oblivious to the rest of the thorns in the bush because they focus too intently on this one.
I'm not saying we shouldn't get rid of crappy teachers. I'm saying crappy teachers are a minor problem and one that administrators already have the ability to deal with. It is the administrators who don't deal with carppy teachers that everyone should be mad at not the crappy teachers. The crappy teacher may not even know they are a crappy teacher.
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which means students are given the chance to re-learn until they pass which means I give my time during lunch and after school for this to happen) that involves not only reading, writing, critical thinking, researching, vocabulary and speaking, I must contend with these state tests that not only must our students pass to graduate, but are also used in our school grade and will soon be used for our evaluations. 
