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VERY TRUE!! I bet the teachers boasting about how time consuming their jobs are have not had another job outside of teaching.
I have worked in industry (laboratory chemist) and academia. Academic research was far harder than working in industry as I worked on a research vessel where we would work 12 hour shifts for up to three weeks at a time. That being said I had more down time in both jobs over all than I do teaching but teaching has other benefits.
So I guess you would lose your bet.
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Grading papers is time consuming BUT if you are spending more than 5 hours a week grading homework outside of your contract hours then MAYBE (just maybe) you are not very efficient.
Here are some ways that I know of to reduce grading time.
1.) USE THE INTERNET!!! I've seen websites that teachers have set up and assigned students homework on. The students answer the questions online and then they are automatically graded. teacher gets a print out of all the grades in less then 1 minute. (its call innovation and thinking outside the box)
a. I do use self-check internet quizzes but that is only one type of assessment, is easily cheated on, and is frequently not free.
b. I know you are not a teacher but seriously you understand that multiple choice is not acceptable as the only way to assess right? My students write a lab report per lab excericse which is at least two per week, there is always problem solving and essays on each test and they write a 20-40 page research paper which takes over an hour to grade per paper each semester.
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2.) in the first 5/10 minutes of class...do peer review. kids grade the other kids paper.
That is illegal in many, many states due to children' privacy rights.
So MAYBE (just maybe) you have no idea what you are talking about.
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theres two ideas work better with math, multiply choice answers or short fill in answers.
I choose to assess at multiple levels in multiple formats because I teach at a school for the gifted and that is the way in which they will develop best as students. I am not complaining because I admit readily this is my choice to work in this field.
What I am COMPLAINING about is the idea that I am not being efficient or that I work an easy job with short hours. That is NOT TRUE.
VERY TRUE!! I bet the teachers boasting about how time consuming their jobs are have not had another job outside of teaching. Grading papers is time consuming BUT if you are spending more than 5 hours a week grading homework outside of your contract hours then MAYBE (just maybe) you are not very efficient.
I worked for 10 years on Wall Street before I went into teaching. Wall Street was much more time consuming but I made $100K per year, not $40K. Teaching is pretty time intensive for a low paying job.
I think the biggest misconception is that the only time teachers are working are the times when the kids are in class. There is work that goes on outside of the classroom and that work is still work.
As far as grading goes, I see 210 students in my 6 classes. I see 5 of the 6 classes every day and I have 6 planning periods every 7 school days (rotator schedule).
I teach multiple classes, with multiple levels in the same classroom.
Electronic music-2 levels
Women's Chorus-2 levels
2 sections of piano-2 levels per class
Mixed Chorus-4 levels
Guitar-2 levels
So even if I only give one assignment per week there are lots of assignments and it takes time to grade them. The different levels need different assignments.
Assignments in classes like electronic music are very time consuming to grade as each child's project needs to be listened to and graded vs a rubric. If each project is 3 minutes long it takes an hour and fifteen minutes JUST TO LISTEN to the projects, plus it takes at least a few minutes to grade them. Sometimes I have to listen twice. It's not inefficient, it's the nature of the class. That is only one class and it does take me multiple hours per week to grade those assignments in that class.
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Originally Posted by misc.random
Here are some ways that I know of to reduce grading time.
1.) USE THE INTERNET!!! I've seen websites that teachers have set up and assigned students homework on. The students answer the questions online and then they are automatically graded. teacher gets a print out of all the grades in less then 1 minute. (its call innovation and thinking outside the box).
Most teachers I know do use some computerized assignments. I do have some computer programs that include embedded assessments. However, most schools require that teachers use more than one sort of assessment in a class. I give assignments that require kids to write, to research, to create things and to present their findings in class. Those type of assignments take longer to grade than the computerized assignments.
I do try to manage my work flow by giving computerized assignments in some classes while giving more time intensive assignments in others.
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Originally Posted by misc.random
2.) in the first 5/10 minutes of class...do peer review. kids grade the other kids paper.
theres two ideas work better with math, multiply choice answers or short fill in answers.
Depends on your setup. I don't have any prep time, at all, because I'm with individual students all day, and because my school is so specialized, it's not split into periods like a traditional public school. Even though I work with older kids, it's more like an elementary school, self-contained setting. Because it's 1:1, a given student doesn't go on to another teacher, but stays with me. The only time I'm NOT with students is my 30-min lunch. To get "prep period" time, we basically need to get there early and stay late.
I bet the teachers boasting about how time consuming their jobs are have not had another job outside of teaching.
Sorry, in my case, in between obtaining my degree and certification and my current teaching job, I worked as an educational program administrator and coordinator for a grassroots inner city nonprofit, spent nearly a decade as a community journalist, doing newspaper reporting and editing, and worked as a paralegal for a poverty law firm. Done plenty - and plenty that's time-consuming outside of teaching. Teaching (if it's being done properly and thoroughly) is still time-consuming.
I'm also not sure anybody's "boasting" about how time-consuming their jobs are, so much as pointing out misconceptions about the field, of which there are plenty. I teach year-round, for instance, which shoots the whole "But you only work nine months a year and have a comparative life of leisure" argument in the foot.
Our middle school required teachers to be there about an hour before school and I have no idea about after school....many of them were leaving same time at the students. Teachers had 2 planning periods per day plus lunch. Papers and projects were primarily graded in class or bubble tests, graded by machines. Lesson plans and tests were group efforts so that time was cut down. If any one of those teachers worked more than 8-9 hours per day then they were just slow. Still, they were a whiny bunch.
Now, contrast that with the students who had homework in every class, every night and the students worked more hours than the teachers, by far.
High school has been very different and those teachers are definitely working harder, longer hours. Maybe as many hours as the students as it is a rigorous program and there is a lot of grading to do. The teachers are taking more interest in the content of the work rather than just format and I'm sure that adds in time as well (for both teachers and students).
In the end, I don't know that teachers work harder or longer hours than many of their professional counterparts in other industries. Salaried professionals often work extra hours for 'no pay'. When my DH was earning salary comparable to a teacher he was working 65-80 hours a week, all year long. His job included traveling, sometimes more than a week at a time. That was his job, salaried, whatever hours it took to get the job done.
If your job is to teach and that includes grading papers, lesson planning, tutoring, etc, then just get to it already. If you don't like the hours, work more efficiently or try another profession.
If you don't like the hours, work more efficiently or try another profession.
This isn't particular to teachers. It's generally a good rule of thumb for anybody in any field.
A growing dislike, over the years, of the ratio of pay to hours required to get the work done was absolutely why I left journalism. Had nothing to do with efficiency, it had to do with workload and staff structure issues endemic to the industry. I have nothing against working lots of extra hours if that's what it takes to do the job right. I assuredly have issues with the pay not making it worth my time to do so. If I felt that way about education, I'd surely exit the profession, as I did with journalism.
This isn't particular to teachers. It's generally a good rule of thumb for anybody in any field.
A growing dislike, over the years, of the ratio of pay to hours required to get the work done was absolutely why I left journalism. Had nothing to do with efficiency, it had to do with workload and staff structure issues endemic to the industry. I have nothing against working lots of extra hours if that's what it takes to do the job right. I assuredly have issues with the pay not making it worth my time to do so. If I felt that way about education, I'd surely exit the profession, as I did with journalism.
True. That is why DH left his job within auto industries. It was just too much with no end in sight. There are still extra hours and traveling but a better balance overall.
It is somewhat disturbing to have teachers continually complaining on one hand and yet wanting to be considered noble professionals (who don't do it for the money) on the other hand. But still, you get that in many professions. Who doesn't think they work too many hours for the pay or that they are unappreciated or that no one else really understands how 'hard' their job is? Reading this thread was also enlightening. I can't think of any other professions where taking YEARS to get good at the job is acceptable. How many students pass through those classes during those first years? I don't think any of the teachers still getting good at their job should be complaining given it is their students (and parents and tax payers) who are really getting shafted with a sub-par teacher.
Really, though, that thread would be more accurately labeled as "How long did it take you to FEEL you are good at teaching," or, "How long did it take to feel comfortable in the classroom?" That's what it's really about. Teachers who are truly terrible performers generally DO get faced with contract nonrenewal when they're early in their careers and have not yet been granted tenure. It's not the new teachers who just aren't good that you need to worry about, it's the tenured ones who rest on, in many cases, seriously old laurels and do so with relative job security. But a new teacher who really, really sucks isn't going to be retained, in most cases (and in most cases, will self-select out of the field altogether, anyway). The thread you referenced is more about feeling confident in one's effectiveness, ordinarily at non-academic facets such as behavioral management, and feeling comfortable in the role than actually being effective. I would venture to say that more students get shafted by subpar teachers that have been teaching for years and are virtually untouchable, and who may have started out as stellar educators but have burned out/gotten complacent than by new, fresh teachers...most of the ones where the role is not a good fit from the get-go opt out very quickly.
And, again, the reality that the longer you spend perfecting your craft, the more practiced and more confident at it you get isn't something that applies only to teaching, by any means. Of course teachers (and journalists, and doctors, and soldiers, and fry cooks, and cashiers, and babysitters, etc.) get better as they learn more through experience. Working for a pro bono law firm, I worked to support a lot of newly minted JDs, because young, idealistic kids fresh out of law school often go to work for poverty law, "make a difference" feel-good firms. And every single one of them was just as terrified that they were in over their heads as they headed into their first hearings and trials as new teachers walking into their first classrooms. What that thread is really speaking to is this sort of thing. That's the whole point. That's why experience matters. If you're not getting better and better the longer you do your job, you're not DOING your job. You should always be improving, professionally, and doing so doesn't mean you were crap when you started, obviously. It would be a mistake to walk into a career figuring you don't have any improvement to be made. Of course new teachers have much to learn. Anybody who's new at anything does.
Yeah, eight hours at school then another eight hours at home.
The contracted time you have to be at school basically covers the actual in-class time and usually one planning period.
But you also have to work lesson plans, call parents, grade, fix up your classroom, grade some more...the actual school year may be 9 months, but you'll do a full years worth of work in that 9 months.
Exactly. My wife is a very effective teacher. If parents would actually parent, her day would only last 10 hours!
BTW...she's also in the middle of getting her Masters Degree.
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I don't think any of the teachers still getting good at their job should be complaining given it is their students (and parents and tax payers) who are really getting shafted with a sub-par teacher.
