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I am a believer too, but I also believe religion is the root of almost all the problems in the world along with money. Religion is the root of racism, xenophobia, homophobia, wars, etc.
I absolutely despise organized religion. For me, sprituality and a close relationship with God is more important than being public about it.
The world really would be better if organized relgion ceased to exist. A retrun to a more private, spiritual view on faith would make it so much better. But since it will never happen, Ill move on.
While I see and acknowledge some of yours points on some level, JustMe, I take issue with your contention that religion is the root of almost all problems in the world. I submit that the root of almost all the problems in the world is/are much simplier and something we in this so called "enlightened" day and age will not accept. That is to say, it is really the imperfect nature of human beings.
Which is why any system based upon a denial of that fact, will fail. Yes, you are right that lots of bad things have been done under some guise of organized religion. But they pale in comparisson to the systems which deny the existence of God, and put "faith" in optomistic theories of human nature. That is to say it can be perfected and that people are inherently good and unselfish.
On a more basic level? The Spanish Inquisition and Salem Witch Trials were horrific. BUT? They are literally nothing compared to the gulags and graveyards filled by socialistic experiments. All of which put the faith (or claimed to, in theory) in human nature...
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
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Can someone, preferably a theist, explain the rationale behind praying for rain?
It is not a new question, but it is relevant here nonetheless. Theists believe that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.
So with respect to our particular issue, that means that:
God knows about the drought. He also knows everything about every possible alternative to our current situation.
God has the power to change anything about the current situation that he wishes too.
God is allowing, or actually creating, the current situation because it is the best possible one.
So, there is no need to pray right? God already knows what is going on, he doesn't need you to tell him. He has the power to change anything he wants already, he doesn't need you to pray to refill his mana meter or anything. He will change the situation when it is best to do so, not when it is most convenient to you.
Whether you believe in God or not, praying is useless. It will rain when it rains in either case.
=Lucidus;18863991]Can someone, preferably a theist, explain the rationale behind praying for rain?
Well, first of all, there is nothing to explain. In and of itself that is a question that by its very nature means people talking over one anothers heads.
I mean, I pray for rain because I believe in God. And I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal savior.
I am not sure in my own mind whether They think very highly of me or not. Or whether there is any willful intent or not behind what He does. Or whether or not They will even listen...or just tell me to shut up because They have more important things on Their minds.
But I know it can't hurt to try....
If, on the hand, you don't believe? Then no answer is going to make sense, anyway.
To your next commentary:
Quote:
It is not a new question, but it is relevant here nonetheless. Theists believe that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.
So with respect to our particular issue, that means that:
God knows about the drought. He also knows everything about every possible alternative to our current situation.
God has the power to change anything about the current situation that he wishes too.
God is allowing, or actually creating, the current situation because it is the best possible one.
So, there is no need to pray right? God already knows what is going on, he doesn't need you to tell him. He has the power to change anything he wants already, he doesn't need you to pray to refill his mana meter or anything. He will change the situation when it is best to do so, not when it is most convenient to you.
Whether you believe in God or not, praying is useless. It will rain when it rains in either case.
*grins* Ok, Ludicuis. But that all really wraps around that old parodox of "Can God create a rock so heavy He can't lift it?" We all heard that one back when we were in high school.
Ever consider that the REASON for a no answer is NOT traceable to that God doesn't exist...but, rather, limitations in a human inability to understand the whole universe and God? Limitations in us...not Him, in other words.
I don't know the answer, I admit. Do you? In poker parlance, I considered folding...but instead, I am going to raise you the Grand Canyon and the Moon and the summer Stars. Your chips were posted above. My raise is this (from St. Auselms thesis)
**********************
1. God exists in our understanding. This means that the concept of God resides as an idea in our minds.
2. God is a possible being, and might exist in reality. He is possible because the concept of God does not bear internal contradictions.
3. If something exists exclusively in our understanding and might have existed in reality then it might have been greater. This simply means that something that exists in reality is perfect (or great). Something that is only a concept in our minds could be greater by actually existing.
4. Suppose (theoretically) that God only exists in our understanding and not in reality. If this were true, then it would be possible for God to be greater then he is (follows from premise #3).
5. This would mean that God is a being in which a greater is possible.
6. This is absurd because God, a being in which none greater is possible, is a being in which a greater is possible. Herein lies the contradiction.
7. Thus it follows that it is false for God to only exist in our understanding.
Hence God exists in reality as well as our understanding.
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
Well, first of all, there is nothing to explain. In and of itself that is a question that by its very nature means people talking over one anothers heads.
I mean, I pray for rain because I believe in God. And I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal savior.
I am not sure in my own mind whether They think very highly of me or not. Or whether there is any willful intent or not behind what He does. Or whether or not They will even listen...or just tell me to shut up because They have more important things on Their minds.
But I know it can't hurt to try....
If, on the hand, you don't believe? Then no answer is going to make sense, anyway.
To your next commentary:
*grins* Ok, Ludicuis. But that all really wraps around that old parodox of "Can God create a rock so heavy He can't lift it?" We all heard that one back when we were in high school.
Ever consider that the REASON for a no answer is NOT traceable to that God doesn't exist...but, rather, limitations in a human inability to understand the whole universe and God? Limitations in us...not Him, in other words.
I don't know the answer, I admit. Do you? In poker parlance, I considered folding...but instead, I am going to raise you the Grand Canyon and the Moon and the summer Stars. Your chips were posted above. My raise is this (from St. Auselms thesis)
**********************
1. God exists in our understanding. This means that the concept of God resides as an idea in our minds.
2. God is a possible being, and might exist in reality. He is possible because the concept of God does not bear internal contradictions.
3. If something exists exclusively in our understanding and might have existed in reality then it might have been greater. This simply means that something that exists in reality is perfect (or great). Something that is only a concept in our minds could be greater by actually existing.
4. Suppose (theoretically) that God only exists in our understanding and not in reality. If this were true, then it would be possible for God to be greater then he is (follows from premise #3).
5. This would mean that God is a being in which a greater is possible.
6. This is absurd because God, a being in which none greater is possible, is a being in which a greater is possible. Herein lies the contradiction.
7. Thus it follows that it is false for God to only exist in our understanding.
Hence God exists in reality as well as our understanding.
***********
Wanna call my bet...or raise?
P.S. BTW -- I am not trying to be a smart-aleck...to me this is just a good debate and discussion and I want to keep it that way.
Wait a minute, you getting way ahead of the discussion here. My question specifically addressed the utility of praying. I wasn't arguing that God exists or doesn't, only that in either case praying is useless and will not effect what happens.
Your answer was that you pray because you believe, but that wasn't the question. I guess another way to state the question could be "do you believe that your prayers will influence the behavior of God"?
Wait a minute, you getting way ahead of the discussion here. My question specifically addressed the utility of praying. I wasn't arguing that God exists or doesn't, only that in either case praying is useless and will not effect what happens.
Your answer was that you pray because you believe, but that wasn't the question. I guess another way to state the question could be "do you believe that your prayers will influence the behavior of God"?
]
Whoa, whoa...what you are trying to do is control the discussion and pace of the arguments. Sorry, I am not going to take the bait, my friend.
No, actually I am getting ahead of the discussion only because your premise and question seems to revolve around on that God doesnt exist. I mean, I could just as easily ask you why you (either in first or second person sense) DON'T believe prayer would help. And direct you to the ontonological argument St. Thomas Aquinis presented (which I quoted from Auselms summation) as to God's existence.
To re-word a bit, let's be honest, Lucidus...you presented a question predicated upon that old "Can God make a rock so heavy He can't lift it"? You were being a bit facitious, right? C'mon. Somewhere there was the little laughing devil notion that Christians (especially we Southern Baptists) are so stuck in a mindset of a 6000 year-old earth that all this rational stuff flies right over our heads, right?
But whatever. If you are asking does there exist a God with willful intent and He hears prayers and answers them or not?
Well, then I go back to my earlier post and how I answered. I don't know. If I KNEW, then there would be no reason for me to pray for rain at all. Hell, I could create it myself. As it is, I DONT know. Do you?
Bottom line: If one believes? Then yes, all the prayers must have worked because we damn sure got rain this Easter weekend!
If you don't? Then, ok...it just happened.
But of course there is always something in between as well. That God exists...but He doesn't always get mixed up in the fine details. It dont hurt to pray...but it doesn't mean He answers each and every one. That maybe He has a Mind of His own and does things in His own good time. That is where the whole mystery of it all, and faith, comes in....
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,506 posts, read 4,280,755 times
Reputation: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
]
Whoa, whoa...what you are trying to do is control the discussion and pace of the arguments. Sorry, I am not going to take the bait, my friend.
No, actually I am getting ahead of the discussion. Because your premise and question seems to revolve around on that God doesnt exist. I mean, I could just as easily ask you why you (either in first or second person sense) DON'T believe prayer would help. And direct you to the ontonological argument St. Thomas Aquinis presented (which I quoted from Auselms summation) as to God's existence.
To re-word a bit, let's be honest, Lucidus...you presented a question predicated upon that old "Can God make a rock so heavy He can't lift it"? You were being a bit facitious, right? C'mon. Somewhere there was the little laughing devil notion that Christians (especially we Southern Baptists) are so stuck in a mindset of a 6000 year-old earth that all this condecending stuff flies right over our heads, right?
But whatever. If you are asking does there exist a God with willful intent and He hears prayers and answers them or not?
Well, then I go back to my earlier post and how I answered. I don't know. If I KNEW, then there would be no reason for me to pray for rain at all. Hell, I could create it myself. As it is, I DONT know. Do you?
Bottom line: If one believes? Then yes, all the prayers must have worked because we damn sure got rain this Easter weekend!
If you don't? Then, ok...it just happened.
There is no need to be defensive. I am asking if there is any reason to pray at all. If there is no God, then the answer is obviously no. But even if God does exists the answer is still no, if you believe that he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.
On lots of things/issues, I would -- like you --lament it, Westerner.
In this case, I really don't. I am sick and tired of us Christians rolling over and playing dead in the face of ridicule and condecension. Thinking these silly little "Christers" and "imaginary man in the sky" actually passes for anything other than what they really are. Sophomoric barbs. Might as well write a line on the boys toilet in high school.
Anyway, I like this little video and I love the song. Dallas Holmes sang it and he got the inspiration to write it as he thought this might be something Jesus Christ would say. I am going to share it with fellow Christians and hope y'all enjoy it.
If it were played in a school? The ACLU would probably sue. As it is? I am sharing it and if they -- or any hateful atheist -- don't like it? If it offends them?
Wellll....?
Tough SH*T. I aint' as nearly as turn the other cheek as He was/is...
There is no need to be defensive. I am asking if there is any reason to pray at all. If there is no God, then the answer is obviously no. But even if God does exists the answer is still no, if you believe that he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.
I think prayer is very valuable. In my personal experience I have prayed to God and have actually seen God dramatically change things in my life after I prayed for help. Those things that changed in my life after I prayed for help defy any other logical explanation. For me that makes prayer very meaningful. IMO, God certainly can change anything he wants. Why he chooses to change certain things and not others is a mystery at times. However, as a believer, I trust that God has my best interests at all times. For example, sometimes I have prayed for a certain outcome and when it didn't happen they way I wanted it, it actualy turned out better another way. In some cases I learned something very valuable from the experience, etc. I don't always know what's best for me, but God does. The reason I believe in God and in prayer is because I have seen God not only change major things in my life but I've also seen God dramatically change things in other people's lives as well, after prayer.
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Bring it on, ACLU
