Texans and their Guns (sales, renting, credit)

[SVTRay]

This is a tired old argument, Connecticut has some of the Strictest Gun laws in the country compared to Texas and look what happened. I really grow tired of people using horrific tragedies to push their political agendas or to hide from their political duties.

Anyhow, My prayers goes out to the people effected by last weeks unbelievable and God Aweful event. I'm deeply saddened by this event and will never forget such a tragedy. It's just heart breaking...

[TT Dave]

Originally Posted by SVTRay

This is a tired old argument, Connecticut has some of the Strictest Gun laws in the country compared to Texas and look what happened. I really grow tired of people using horrific tragedies to push their political agendas or to hide from their political duties.

That's exactly what I've been telling people I know that want more gun control laws. If it can happen in a place that has strict gun laws like Connecticut it can happen anywhere. Even if you were to restrict every conceivable firearm, what's to prevent someone from using a bomb to blow up a school for example. Crazy, deranged people are going to find a way to inflict damage on others no matter what gun laws are in place. I can see not allowing military style guns on the street. Those fully automatic weapons are designed to cover multiple targets over a wide range. Those weapons require special military training and experience to safely use them. However, the right to own a personal firearm for personal protection and safety or a hunting rifle is a fundamental right of every American citizen. I certainly wouldn't feel safer living in a world where the bad guys have all the weapons and the rest of us law abiding citizens can't defend ourselves adequately.

Like some others have already posted, we need to focus on what causes these lunatics to want to inflict harm on others in the first place and address those issues more adequately instead of what method they might use. IMO, if those fundamental reasons aren't addressed, no additonal firearms related laws will make even the slightest difference in preventing mass murder.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Gree Mountain

P.S. Please give me one example form U.S. history after the Revolutionary War when an armed citizenry either defended or expanded liberty against a tyrannical government?

You frame the question backward. Given the existence of the 2nd Ammendment -- and that you brought up the topic -- it is incumbent upon you to provide evidence of why your facts are not traceable to the original existence of the people's right to keep and bear arms?

In other words, could the 2nd A. itself be the reason why the government in this country has remained -- relatively speaking -- fairly cautious and prudent...? Unless somehow you believe the United State is immune to the laws of history and that power corrupts. DeToqueville foresaw it, clearly...

There is one historical constant when it comes to absolute power, whether it be benevolent dictatorship, socialism, or facism; far right or far left. And that is a disarmed populace....

The new Second Ammendment (as some would probably like to see it):

A well-regulated and controlled populace, being necesssary to the perpetual existence of a benevolent state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall be strictly limited to those persons in active military, or active law-enforcement, duty.

[Gree Mountain]

Rather than trying to prove a negative, I'll give you a concrete example from the twentieth century. Before the 1960s African-Americans in most parts of the country lived under legislative and de facto government tyranny. The eventually gained their deserved liberty through peaceable action in the streets and deliberative means in Congress and the courts. Indeed those factions in the Civil Rights movement that argued for recourse to arms actually had the least success. So no, I don't believe an armed citizenry does anything to protect or advance American liberty.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Gree Mountain

The point is that if enough of us who support stricter gun regulations make our voices heard, then gun owners, in Texas or any other state, will have no choice but to surrender their illegal weapons or face prison.

Just out of curiosity, why would you trust guns in the hands of those who would have to use guns to confiscate, from their fellow citizens, the newly declared "illegal weapons"?

[Gree Mountain]

I assume that gun owners are law abiding people who would peaceably hand over or sell back outlawed weapons.

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Gree Mountain

There is reason that the Second Amendment was understood throughout most of American history as a collective, civic right of local communities whereas speech and voting have nearly always been understood as more directly individual rights.

It is difficult to not spew beer all over the screen reading the above. Can you provide just ONE iota of evidence (such as from the Federalist Papers), that provide a shred of support for your premise that the Second Ammendment was "understood...to be a "collective right". This is absolutely ridiculous, and you probably know it.

The right to keep and bear arms has ALWAYS been understood (it just needed recent confirmation thru SCOTUS) to have been an individual right. If not? It would have been challenged looooong ago. I mean LONG ago, as otherwise...

But since you toss the the Founding Fathers around as back-up for your position today? Well, again, furnish the proof you smugly proclaim as to "collective" as opposed to "individual" right.

*grins a bit*. Actually, if we are going to play the game of alternate history? I have a scenario of my own......

It goes like this:

In front of the bar of history, you present your case that those old men surely couldn't have meant what you claim today they meant. You explain your position on modern-day weapons and...

...like the kind, patient, men, they were, they would hear you out...and then say:

Good Lord, son... What sorta grab-a$$in' piece of bullshlit are you are you talkin' about here???

[TexasReb]

Originally Posted by Gree Mountain

I assume that gun owners are law abiding people who would peaceably hand over or sell back outlawed weapons.

OK. Let me get this straight. One at a time. Most gun-owners are law-abiding people? Is that what you are saying? I mean, you agree with that sentiment?

[TX75007]

Looky here.

Bunch of gun haters looking to murder NRA members.

Death Threats Against NRA on Twitter | Power Line

On this thread we have seen people looking to use government power to violate constitutional rights across the board - free speech rights, voting rights, and then self defense rights.

After you have taken all these rights, I am not surprised that it has devolved to this. Its the next logical step.

[cecilsav]

Originally Posted by High_Plains_Retired

My father would roll over in his grave if he knew what has happened to his country. However, he would be shocked that so many Americans have now become so foolish they are willing to trade their freedoms for security.

My decedents would be delighted to see what America has become. Still the greatest country on earth which allows for you to say almost anything you choose.