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But I wasn't even talking about going across town. I was mainly talking about going for a gallon of milk.
In both Dallas and Houston you are going to be driving. But Houston main roads are all lined with stores. In Houston it pretty much going around the corner.
The average Dallas resident doesn't have that readily available retail along every main road.
It's very funny to me that Red is saying we don't know Dallas when clearly he doesn't know Dallas is just as car centric as Houston but without the amenity laden street.
Are you paying attention? Zoom around a little bit. To the left, right, up, down is all single family homes.
There's busses but the amenities along Dallas's streets are paltry because zoning keeps all of that out of neighborhoods.
Now let's look at a typical Houston street. https://maps.app.goo.gl/ELnsKbkWgJhhymuy5
I picked one further out from Downtown so no one should say I'm picking a street in the core for Houston. And I avoided picking powerhouse streets like Westheimer. It looks hideous right? Houston streets are not the prettiest and they are not walkable in the traditional sense, but tons of people end up walking. People who live a few hundred yards from that street can easily walk to that street to buy things.
Look on one side there an apartment complex across the street. You don't think the people in that complex don't access the retail across the street in foot frequently.
It's not about European walkability where you promenade in your finest to see and be seen. It's about getting ***** done. And Houston is easily the easiest major city in Texas to do that. San Antonio has older patches that are not heavily zoned so I would say SA would come second.
Dallas is heavily zoned, especially outside of that area north of downtown. Zoning was meant to keep residential areas nice and pretty and to prevent the Manhattanization of cities. Zoning started to take root after the 1920's during the age of the automobile so it basically brought suburban life to the city (that is residential only, no commercial/retail).
Houston's development is erroneously referred to as suburban because its arterial streets are car- centric. But car centric doesn't necessarily mean suburban. Suburbsare residential areas and aft not commerce heavy. Just about all Houston's streets are commercial strips so Houston is probably the least suburban metro in the country but it is one of the most car- centric. Houston is the only major city in the US with no zoning laws mandating areas be only dingle family. So it is city like throughout the city.
I've pointed that out to him multiple times. For some reason, he likes to pretend that he has no problem with Houston...but all of his posts suggest otherwise. Not sure where the pretense is coming from, but I'm starting to like even dallasboi more than Red.
How do I pretend when I let it be known I really don't like majority of Greater Houston outside of the loop? I'm pretty honest and straight forward about that. So let me break this down for you again. I like and even love some things about the loop. The further away from the loop, the more I dislike Houston as a metropolitan area. I've said this so many times on City Data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atadytic19
Yeah Houston has lots of alternatives.
But I wasn't even talking about going across town. I was mainly talking about going for a gallon of milk.
In both Dallas and Houston you are going to be driving. But Houston main roads are all lined with stores. In Houston it pretty much going around the corner.
The average Dallas resident doesn't have that readily available retail along every main road.
It's very funny to me that Red is saying we don't know Dallas when clearly he doesn't know Dallas is just as car centric as Houston but without the amenity laden street.
Are you paying attention? Zoom around a little bit. To the left, right, up, down is all single family homes.
There's busses but the amenities along Dallas's streets are paltry because zoning keeps all of that out of neighborhoods.
Now let's look at a typical Houston street. https://maps.app.goo.gl/ELnsKbkWgJhhymuy5
I picked one further out from Downtown so no one should say I'm picking a street in the core for Houston. And I avoided picking powerhouse streets like Westheimer. It looks hideous right? Houston streets are not the prettiest and they are not walkable in the traditional sense, but tons of people end up walking. People who live a few hundred yards from that street can easily walk to that street to buy things.
Look on one side there an apartment complex across the street. You don't think the people in that complex don't access the retail across the street in foot frequently.
It's not about European walkability where you promenade in your finest to see and be seen. It's about getting ***** done. And Houston is easily the easiest major city in Texas to do that. San Antonio has older patches that are not heavily zoned so I would say SA would come second.
Dallas is heavily zoned, especially outside of that area north of downtown. Zoning was meant to keep residential areas nice and pretty and to prevent the Manhattanization of cities. Zoning started to take root after the 1920's during the age of the automobile so it basically brought suburban life to the city (that is residential only, no commercial/retail).
Houston's development is erroneously referred to as suburban because its arterial streets are car- centric. But car centric doesn't necessarily mean suburban. Suburbsare residential areas and aft not commerce heavy. Just about all Houston's streets are commercial strips so Houston is probably the least suburban metro in the country but it is one of the most car- centric. Houston is the only major city in the US with no zoning laws mandating areas be only dingle family. So it is city like throughout the city.
So let me get this straight, you post up a google street view of a historical Dallas neighborhood(one of the oldest neighborhoods in the state of Texas) and then compare it to Uptown Houston? LMAOOO Mind you a neighborhood that was pretty much built out before WW2.
The propaganda is strong with this one. If you're going to post up Uptown Houston or Fountain View right off San Felipe than post up Dallas equivalent and make that comparison.
These are typical MAJOR streets in Dallas. Which these streets are about the same distance from Downtown Dallas as that image of Fountain View is to Downtown Houston.
And for the record it doesn't take long AT ALL to get to any of these main arterial roads in Dallas. You can easily live in a residential area or a group of apartments that are in close proximity to these places. Nobody in Dallas is complaining about how long it takes to get to any of these places. That's actually a preference one which I prefer over Houston's layout btw.
Now it's obvious you've never driven around or in Dallas. I think it's obvious you're not aware of Dallas outside of Downtown probably. The fact you posted that google street view of an pre WW2 subdivision 2 miles from downtown Dallas shows you don't know much about Dallas.
My point though was that because of Houston's heavy abundance of strip centers and heavy car-centric infrastructure it's more of a disadvantage for the city than it is an advantage. And yes Dallas is just as car-centric as Houston, I never said it wasn't. But outside of Dallas freeways it's easier and less stressful to drive in than in Houston mainly because of it's stricter zoning. You think I'm the only one that thinks like this. Even Mileage Mike who's driven extensively in pretty much every major and minor city in Texas and all across the country says that Houston is the 2nd worst city when it comes to driving in Texas. Only native Houstonians would think Houston is the easiest city to drive in. You can even look in the comment section and see people going off about driving in Houston. Matter fact outside of Houstonians I don't know too many other Texans that's a fan of driving in Houston. That's just me though. I'm from Northeast Texas, maybe we're generally more biased to DFW.
Also as far as your example, you might get a couple of residents that will walk to H-E-B and that shopping center since it's on the same side as the apartment complex but I've been to this area several times and rarely see people from the nearby apartments walking to these businesses. And that's typical of Houston. Average pedestrians don't feel protected enough even when amenities are in close proximity to get out and walk. If you eliminate the parking lots and have businesses up front to wider sidewalks on both sides with protected bike lanes then it would encourage more people to walk but this street is no different than when I stayed on Eldridge in the Energy Corridor and somewhat similar to where I stay now in Katy.
This is where I use to stay. The only easy place to walk to was the shopping center that was on the same side as our apartment complex. Hey that has it's benefits right? But try walking down the street to some of the other establishments or literally across the street to the park and see how convenient Houston's infrastructure is. It's not really. And this was one of the biggest complaints transplants with kids had in this area. This stretch of Eldridge should be more pedestrian friendly considering the amount of people that live in this area. Literally in walking distance from grocery stores, restaurants, etc. Now the people I generally saw walking in the area were kids just getting out of school. And often times these kids would run out in the middle of the street and almost get hit by oncoming traffic driving over 40 miles per hour in a residential area. Or even in big ass parking lots or simply crossing entrances into parking lots. I can assure you most transplants at least in that area wanted Walkability but realized quickly that the infrastructure wouldn't allow for a pedestrian friendly experience. Complexes even sell you on the fact that everything is in arms reach in areas like that but what you don't realize is that it's so car-centric that 9 out of 10 times you'll resort to the car because it's just too exhausting to get around on foot even though it's just as exhausting getting to these places in your car.
And I'll say it again, I'm not suggesting Dallas is less car-centric it's just less stressful imo. But hey if hopping in your car for a gallon of milk in an area that should be walkable is a flex for you than so be it. Weird hill to die on but gotta give Houston some type of edge huh? So if you want close proximity to Whole Milk than Houston is definitely the city to move to evidently.
I think Red has a point. Dallas overall is just slightly less stressful to drive around for the fact that there's relatively less gridlock. Surprisingly, for a metro its size there is just relatively less terrible traffic in Dallas compared to either Austin or Houston. But I'd say the freeway system in Houston is a lot more simple and easier to navigate although this may be just a matter of preference. With that being said, I don't really vibe with Dallas for a few reasons. Believe it or not, there's definitely something off about this city that I don't find in either Houston or Austin. The image-conscious, corporate-like mindset thing unfortunately seems real... You can find the same type of demographics in all other large Texas cities, but for some reason they stick out more in Dallas (I'm sure a lot of C-D members will agree with me on this). Austin, the city I live in, has its own kind of pretentiousness that I dislike, and I can even somewhat tolerate it better than what you get in Dallas.
I don't recall me mentioning DC or Hampton Roads in my post so what's up with the goal posting. If anything I'm comparing Houston to cities I've lived in or spent a significant amount of time in. I haven't spent enough time in D.C. or Hampton Roads to make the comparison.
So let me break this down for yall again because I realize any criticism aimed about Houston is very sensitive for yall.
I never said Houston is HARD I said Houston is EXHAUSTING FOR ME to drive in. Yes Houston sets on a grid and it's fairly easy not to get lost. I'll even say Houston freeways are a lot easier to drive on than DFW more complex freeway system. Also I've said this over and over again and I'll say it again, roadways in the loop are fairly easy to drive in.
It's mostly everything outside the loop that's the problem and that's where the majority of Houston residents reside in. For example Westheimer road. The problem with Westheimer is it's too wide, too many businesses along an arterial road because of it's density mixed with aggressive drivers. It's poorly designed just like most arterial roads in Houston more specifically outside the loop. When you got a mix of slow drivers, fast drivers, and people trying to get to the many many businesses along the road it's a cause for disaster and it gets stressful. And it's especially stressful after you been in a major car accident such as myself.
I really don't understand why some Houstonians on City Data feel the need to defend poor city planning. That's not reflective of the people unless the people are in favor of it. But I think those who are in favor of Houston's layout are suffering from a serious case of Stockholm syndrome. Especially when you have institutions such as Kinder pretty much confirming why Houston roadways are a very serious issue. But politicians in this city don't listen to the smart guys and clearly some residents don't either.
Also I brought up walkability because if your going to have the kind of density that ata was bragging about then you need to have a more walkable infrastructure to accommodate that density was my point. You can't have a dense population and a commercial district all while having a 100% car centric infrastructure and think that's normal. That's chaotic and no I'm not suggesting everywhere else is perfect. But I do think driving around Dallas outside of it's freeways is less chaotic than Houston. Still has it's own set of issues but less chaotic from my experience.
I guess Houston chronical has an irrational hatred of Houston when they reported Houston as the most deadliest city to drive in in all of America's major cities.
I think it's pretty rational to hate the way a large percentage of the metro area is built especially when it impacts drivers daily on the road. That's not just a Houston problem either, Houston just happens to be really up there in that department. Irrational is to feel offended by someone commenting on city planning. I could understand if you were in the meetings with the city of Houston and actually developing the city but you're a resident just like me. I didn't say anything about Houstonians or the culture. That's the part I love about living in Houston. I also love some things about the loop. But you can't convince me to love the way Greater Houston is built outside of the loop. Pockets here and there are solid but for the most part it's a no for me dawg.
And my point was definitely relevant to Ata's post. You just don't like any criticism about Houston especially if Dallas is on the better end of that stick.
Nope. You were just flat out wrong. And again, you are avoiding the point that Houston is easy to get around in and throwing in a red herring.
Everyone has their preferences. I kind of like a lot about Houston's disorder. Other people like how orderly Dallas is. Its not like that anymore, but Dallas used that order in the past to be extremely segregated. You just didn't see many minorities north of the Trinity River, except in one neighborhood in RISD in North Dallas. That segregation probably didn't really break down until around 1990.
Both have good freeway networks but Houston's grid, its close in first loop (Loop 12 isn't freeway all around) and its lack of zoning make it easier to get what you want.
I think Red has a point. Dallas overall is just slightly less stressful to drive around for the fact that there's relatively less gridlock. Surprisingly, for a metro its size there is just relatively less terrible traffic in Dallas compared to either Austin or Houston. But I'd say the freeway system in Houston is a lot more simple and easier to navigate although this may be just a matter of preference. With that being said, I don't really vibe with Dallas for a few reasons. Believe it or not, there's definitely something off about this city that I don't find in either Houston or Austin. The image-conscious, corporate-like mindset thing unfortunately seems real... You can find the same type of demographics in all other large Texas cities, but for some reason they stick out more in Dallas (I'm sure a lot of C-D members will agree with me on this). Austin, the city I live in, has its own kind of pretentiousness that I dislike, and I can even somewhat tolerate it better than what you get in Dallas.
I remember back in the 70s driving from Fair Park to North Dallas. I would have to shift 7! lanes left to keep going north on Central Expressway. Lanes kept exiting. Don't think its quite as bad now, but you still have to move a lot.
I remember back in the 70s driving from Fair Park to North Dallas. I would have to shift 7! lanes left to keep going north on Central Expressway. Lanes kept exiting. Don't think its quite as bad now, but you still have to move a lot.
Is the question at the beginning of the thread a rhetorical one? I refer you to a thread in the Dallas section about the city starting off with two downtowns - the downtowns of Dallas and Oak Cliff. Add Deep Ellum which is also an extension of downtown Dallas and the city has established two beachheads to the south and southwest parts of the city. These are commonly thought to be the poor parts of town.
What is so cool about downtown Oak Cliff is how it comes with the diversity already included.
That won't stop me from voicing my opinion. So cry me a flooded frontage road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atadytic19
Ha! Didn't he consider a move to Dallas also?
If all those places cause him less grief, you would think he would have relocated by now right?
Sounds like a terrible life to me. To dislike the majority of the city you live in, then dang, I would have been gone the first job offer I got.
Houston must be treating him a lot better than he is letting us know
Well my Wife is a Houstonian who has most of her family ties here so unfortunately I'm stuck in this clusterf*ck of a metro at least till 2024. Plus I gotta let my child finish the semester up first. Just can't up and leave when you have a family you know. But trust me, Family was the only reason we moved back. Boy was the grass greener literally and figurately on the other side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2
Nope. You were just flat out wrong. And again, you are avoiding the point that Houston is easy to get around in and throwing in a red herring.
Everyone has their preferences. I kind of like a lot about Houston's disorder. Other people like how orderly Dallas is. Its not like that anymore, but Dallas used that order in the past to be extremely segregated. You just didn't see many minorities north of the Trinity River, except in one neighborhood in RISD in North Dallas. That segregation probably didn't really break down until around 1990.
Both have good freeway networks but Houston's grid, its close in first loop (Loop 12 isn't freeway all around) and its lack of zoning make it easier to get what you want.
My whole post had nothing to do with how easy is to get around. That's you're argument. That's null and void when it's constant gridlock and an disorderly infrastructure that makes it exhausting and dangerous for the average pedestrian. I mean who the hell likes disorder? Most Americans visiting Houston dislike that very much. I guess I get it if you're born and raised in Houston. It's your first rodeo, you don't know any better.
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