Scarborough shooting at a block party leaves 2 dead, 19 injured (subsidized, living in)

[Max Sterling]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

To me, it is pretty much the same. My point was that one of the most important statistics is the one you have to work with. It is still the same result whether I get shot by the occasional mass shooter or get it from the daily violent street thugs.



Of course this doesn't get national attention. Alot of people view it was something not worth mention. I think some people really don't care if Blacks kill one another.



In the GENERAL sense, yes. In the INDIVIDUAL sense, this is what I am talking about. I am talking about an individual's chance based on their lifestyle and their attitude. On paper, Blacks are more likely to die. However, it is so in a general sense.

Its NOT the same. Your chances of being affected by daily violence are obviously higher than being shot in a theatre watching a movie especially when we're talking about black violence.

A mass theatre shooting is a once in a blue moon event, while daily violence in Toronto, Chicago or where ever your chance of being involved in an incident is much higher. If you do everything right to avoid trouble you lower your odds, but they will NEVER be lower than your chances of getting shot in a theatre. Seriously what was the last theatre shooting you can remember? Years? Decades ago?

Actually, I know more Black people who were raised properly than you think. I don't see myself as the exception. I'm in a university and most Blacks I see obvious did make a life for themselves.

That's great, but that doesn't change the fact that you're still in the minority. I look to the asian population in the US and that's a group that you can say a high proportion are doing well for themselves and even the ones that currently aren't still very few are choosing to turn to crime.

Even if most of the crimes being committed are by young Black males, it still doesn't make sense to me. This is why. At the end of the day, I have ME to look after. I'm not a criminal and I don't see any reason to be viewed as one. If the vast majority of Blacks are not committing crimes, and yet the Black crime rate is high, then this is proving racial profiling isn't working. Most of the persons who are committing crimes aren't getting caught. Of course Black people are going to be upset. I definitely would be upset. I would feel violated because you are basically presuming that I'm guilty by association. What does it do for me as an individual?


I know what I personally want. I want to be able to live like anyone else. I want to live in a peaceful place, and not worry about being profiled by the police. If I'm going to be profiled by the police because of my race, it makes me think "Why should I even live here? If I wanted this I would have committed crime". I've been in the car with my own father when he was pulled over by the police out of "suspicion". That wasted our time and made our life a little bit harder.

Here's the thing, while its true most blacks in Toronto probably don't commit crime, its also true that a high proportion of young black males ARE committing crime and murder. Far, FAR higher than any other young males of any other race/ethnicity in the city. This is the group of people we should be targeting.

Put the term 'racial profiling' aside for a moment and think about it. If a certain demographic is committing crime and murder at a much higher rate than anyone else, doesn't it make sense to place more emphasis on dealing with this group above all others? If this group happens to be young black males, putting race aside doesn't it make sense to spend your resouces on this group and reform and help the ones that want the assistance and for those thugs who don't want to change to get them off the street?

I agree with raising one's children better, I agree with being a snitch. However, I will mind if I become a target for racial profiling. I look at it like this. I don't commit crimes, so why should I be perceived as such. If I don't know who the criminals are, why should I suffer? If I know who the criminals are, I will gladly rat them out. If a healthy relationship with the police is wanted, it has to start with building trust with the police. Racial profiling isn't going to build a relationship of trust. I look at it this way. Blacks have pretty much been harassed and abused by the police for years, not just 10 or 20, but for over 100 years. Of course as a Black man, I'm going to be upset, because for me, it is basically a throwback to the old days.

And another thing to point out is this. Alot of Black people who want a safer environment for themselves and their children often move to safer neighborhoods so they don't have to deal with that kind of environment. It's called voting with your feet. Many Black people do that.

I still think targeting people because of their race is a bad idea, especially if most of the persons being pulled over aren't involved in crime.

I agree that it sucks that innocent blacks have to suffer, but guess what? TOO DAMN BAD. If you're a young black male and you get pulled over for not reason, tough nuts. You fall fall into that demographic and if this happens to you, you smile, co-operate and then go on your way. If you're black but don't fall into this category and you still get pulled over, do the same as above although cops should be concentrating on young, black males.

For 20+ years now blacks have been leading year on year in most categories of crime especially when it comes to physical violence and murder and Toronto police has been forced to deal softly with the black community all this time for fear of being called 'racist' (which they still do regardless by alot of people, both black and non-black) while trying to fight black crime. This has worked in the sense that Toronto's crime rates are very low and has been dropping in recent years, but it hasn't worked in the sense that EVERY YEAR FOR DECADES blacks STILL top the murder victim as well as murder suspect list.

Now its time to deal with them with a tougher hand. If you're a young black male in Toronto you should simply accept that you MIGHT be pulled over and questioned more often than anyone else for a while. And for those blacks who are already in trouble with the law that doesn't include major offense, you give them a choice of whether or not they want to change and if they do, you give them all the help they need, BUT if they go back to a life of crime, you throw the book at them. You gave them the chance and they still mess it up. Too bad and now you get put away.

This is how we should be dealing with not just blacks but anyone who commits serious crime in the city. In this instance it just happens to be mostly blacks. And if people in high crime neighborhoods can rat out the criminals more often and black parents can raise their kids better, I'm confident that we could lower black crime here in a very few short years, but blacks have to really want this and so far after all these years I haven't seen it.

There's only so much that non-blacks in Toronto, the police and government can do to help. Its mostly up to blacks to do the work and so far for them its mostly been talk. They all say they want an end to the violence and death, but when it comes time to ratting out someone or raising their kids properly so they don't grow up bad in the first place, they just aren't doing what they're saying and I really wish they would so everyone can live in a safer city.

[green_mariner]

Its NOT the same. Your chances of being affected by daily violence are obviously higher than being shot in a theatre watching a movie especially when we're talking about black violence.

I was talking about ME as an individual. On paper, the statistics don't look good. But in MY personal life, I don't live in a rough neighborhood. I don't sell drugs. I keep away from criminals. For Black males as a demographic, the chances of being murdered are very high. But it varies on the individual level. I was talking about the individual level.

A mass theatre shooting is a once in a blue moon event, while daily violence in Toronto, Chicago or where ever your chance of being involved in an incident is much higher. If you do everything right to avoid trouble you lower your odds, but they will NEVER be lower than your chances of getting shot in a theatre. Seriously what was the last theatre shooting you can remember? Years? Decades ago?

I wasn't talking about my chances of getting shot in a theater vs. in daily violence. I was talking about MY individual odds. You also missed my point. My point is about YOUR individual odds. That is what I have been talking about. Statistically, the chances of a mass shooting are lower than daily violence. However, the family members of the shooting victims are not thing about that. They are thinking about THEIR family members and how THEY are affected by this mass murderer. And in my town, two years ago, there was a mass shooting at a truck rental place, where 3 employees were murdered.

That's great, but that doesn't change the fact that you're still in the minority. I look to the asian population in the US and that's a group that you can say a high proportion are doing well for themselves and even the ones that currently aren't still very few are choosing to turn to crime.

I don't see myself as being in the minority. I see it like this. There is a higher PROPORTION of Black people getting into trouble, not the majority.

Here's the thing, while its true most blacks in Toronto probably don't commit crime, its also true that a high proportion of young black males ARE committing crime and murder. Far, FAR higher than any other young males of any other race/ethnicity in the city. This is the group of people we should be targeting.

I still don't see why Blacks who are obeying the law should be targeted.

Put the term 'racial profiling' aside for a moment and think about it. If a certain demographic is committing crime and murder at a much higher rate than anyone else, doesn't it make sense to place more emphasis on dealing with this group above all others? If this group happens to be young black males, putting race aside doesn't it make sense to spend your resouces on this group and reform and help the ones that want the assistance and for those thugs who don't want to change to get them off the street?

It isn't going to make sense to me the majority of that demographic isn't committing crime. And it would be impossible for me to put 'racial profiling' aside because targeting people based on their race is basically racial profiling.

I agree that it sucks that innocent blacks have to suffer, but guess what? TOO DAMN BAD. If you're a young black male and you get pulled over for not reason, tough nuts. You fall fall into that demographic and if this happens to you, you smile, co-operate and then go on your way. If you're black but don't fall into this category and you still get pulled over, do the same as above although cops should be concentrating on young, black males.

This "TOO BAD" mentality is a cop out in my opinion. How does that help ME? At the end of the day, I have ME to worry about. I might cooperate, but then I will file a complaint. I'm law abiding and I don't commit crime. That said, if a police officer pulls me over for NO reason other than my skin color, then I will file a complaint. I don't think the way you are asking me to think. If I am being treated unfairly, I am going to do something about it. I'm not going to accept it, period.

For 20+ years now blacks have been leading year on year in most categories of crime especially when it comes to physical violence and murder and Toronto police has been forced to deal softly with the black community all this time for fear of being called 'racist' (which they still do regardless by alot of people, both black and non-black) while trying to fight black crime. This has worked in the sense that Toronto's crime rates are very low and has been dropping in recent years, but it hasn't worked in the sense that EVERY YEAR FOR DECADES blacks STILL top the murder victim as well as murder suspect list.

And yet, racial profiling still goes on. What you have said proves racial profiling doesn't work. If racial profiling is implemented, and the crime rate among Blacks is still high, then there is something wrong here. Profiling isn't working. Something else has to be used.

Now its time to deal with them with a tougher hand. If you're a young black male in Toronto you should simply accept that you MIGHT be pulled over and questioned more often than anyone else for a while. And for those blacks who are already in trouble with the law that doesn't include major offense, you give them a choice of whether or not they want to change and if they do, you give them all the help they need, BUT if they go back to a life of crime, you throw the book at them. You gave them the chance and they still mess it up. Too bad and now you get put away.

I am not going to accept being racial profiled. If I know who committed a crime, I am going to cooperate and spill my guts. I will snitch with the best of them. I will not provoke a police officer, I will cooperate. However, if I do get harassed or profiled, I'm going to do something about it. I can't do anything about being Black. I was born Black. I can't do anything about a criminal who lives on the other side I town. I don't live there and I can't do anything about it. However, I can do something where I live. If I get harassed or profiled, I'm going to do something about it. I won't accept it. I'm not committing any crimes, so I don't see a reason why I should have to accept being racially profiled. It doesn't help ME. It makes my life harder.

This is how we should be dealing with not just blacks but anyone who commits serious crime in the city. In this instance it just happens to be mostly blacks. And if people in high crime neighborhoods can rat out the criminals more often and black parents can raise their kids better, I'm confident that we could lower black crime here in a very few short years, but blacks have to really want this and so far after all these years I haven't seen it.

I have a better way. Look at all the neighborhoods by CRIME RATE, not RACE. Put police in those neighborhoods and have a strong police presence on those streets. Have neighborhood police on the beat. And I agree with ratting out the criminals. I might say the reason many Blacks don't rat out criminals is because

A) Many Blacks are afraid of violent revenge from the criminals or their associates.
B) Many Blacks feel that the justice system is biased and that a Black man might not get a fair trial.

Those fears have to be confronted.

There's only so much that non-blacks in Toronto, the police and government can do to help. Its mostly up to blacks to do the work and so far for them its mostly been talk. They all say they want an end to the violence and death, but when it comes time to ratting out someone or raising their kids properly so they don't grow up bad in the first place, they just aren't doing what they're saying and I really wish they would so everyone can live in a safer city.

I have been advocating ratting out criminals and raising one's children properly. It is racial profiling I disagree with.

[Max Sterling]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

I was talking about ME as an individual. On paper, the statistics don't look good. But in MY personal life, I don't live in a rough neighborhood. I don't sell drugs. I keep away from criminals. For Black males as a demographic, the chances of being murdered are very high. But it varies on the individual level. I was talking about the individual level.



I wasn't talking about my chances of getting shot in a theater vs. in daily violence. I was talking about MY individual odds. You also missed my point. My point is about YOUR individual odds. That is what I have been talking about. Statistically, the chances of a mass shooting are lower than daily violence. However, the family members of the shooting victims are not thing about that. They are thinking about THEIR family members and how THEY are affected by this mass murderer. And in my town, two years ago, there was a mass shooting at a truck rental place, where 3 employees were murdered.

OK I get it, you're talking about yourself and not the whole as I am.

I don't see myself as being in the minority. I see it like this. There is a higher PROPORTION of Black people getting into trouble, not the majority.

The only problem is that its a much, MUCH higher proportion compared to people of any other race/ethnicity.

I still don't see why Blacks who are obeying the law should be targeted.


It isn't going to make sense to me the majority of that demographic isn't committing crime. And it would be impossible for me to put 'racial profiling' aside because targeting people based on their race is basically racial profiling.

Blacks in general shouldn't be targeted, but if you're a young black male who dresses like a gangbanger and acts suspiciously then don't be surprised if you get stopped. Plain and simple. If you have nothing to hide and have done nothing wrong, then what's the problem?

Put it this way, if the high murder rate was a white issue instead of black, I would have no problem being stopped. Why? Because even though its annoying, I WANT the problem FIXED. If white males are shooting people in the streets, then target white males so that at least some of them will think twice about committing crime. I DON'T want this problem to fester and possibly grow even worse.

I mean why do people approve of cops setting up checkpoints to stop drivers to check if they're driving drunk even though it doesn't deter everyone from continuing to drive drunk? The overwhelming majority of drivers stopped are sober aren't they? Yet most people are fine with this because it DOES take some drunk drivers off the street even if its only temporary and sometimes for longer term if they're repeat offenders and for others it keeps them on their toes that if you drive drunk, you could get caught and face consequences.

Why can't this be the goal of targeting black males who look like they might be up to no good? Obviously this doesn't catch everyone bad and alot of innocent black males will get stopped as well, but if it gets even a few criminals off the street then its worth it.

This "TOO BAD" mentality is a cop out in my opinion. How does that help ME? At the end of the day, I have ME to worry about. I might cooperate, but then I will file a complaint. I'm law abiding and I don't commit crime. That said, if a police officer pulls me over for NO reason other than my skin color, then I will file a complaint. I don't think the way you are asking me to think. If I am being treated unfairly, I am going to do something about it. I'm not going to accept it, period.



And yet, racial profiling still goes on. What you have said proves racial profiling doesn't work. If racial profiling is implemented, and the crime rate among Blacks is still high, then there is something wrong here. Profiling isn't working. Something else has to be used.



I am not going to accept being racial profiled. If I know who committed a crime, I am going to cooperate and spill my guts. I will snitch with the best of them. I will not provoke a police officer, I will cooperate. However, if I do get harassed or profiled, I'm going to do something about it. I can't do anything about being Black. I was born Black. I can't do anything about a criminal who lives on the other side I town. I don't live there and I can't do anything about it. However, I can do something where I live. If I get harassed or profiled, I'm going to do something about it. I won't accept it. I'm not committing any crimes, so I don't see a reason why I should have to accept being racially profiled. It doesn't help ME. It makes my life harder.

If you feel you've been wrongly pulled over then go ahead and file that complaint, but that shouldn't stop cops from pulling you or someone else over if they look suspicious. Why? Because blacks SCREWED IT UP FOR THEMSELVES and yet they still want a pass?? Cmon.

YOU may not have done anything to make blacks look bad, but many people of the same race as you DID do things that made blacks look bad. And we're not talking about a one year anomoly or a brief 5 year trend, we're talking about DECADES of high crime and murder from blacks here. People keep giving blacks the benefit of the doubt year after year when it comes to crime thinking that things will get better and every year its the same damn crap and NOTHING CHANGES. So if someone like you who has done everything right is affected too, TOO DAMN BAD. Blacks have been given plenty of help, time and opportunity to raise their kids properly and to try and make their neighborhoods safer AND THEY'VE FAILED. Time to try something different and if it offends blacks here, tough luck because its clear that whatever their doing now isn't very effective.

I have a better way. Look at all the neighborhoods by CRIME RATE, not RACE. Put police in those neighborhoods and have a strong police presence on those streets. Have neighborhood police on the beat. And I agree with ratting out the criminals. I might say the reason many Blacks don't rat out criminals is because

A) Many Blacks are afraid of violent revenge from the criminals or their associates.
B) Many Blacks feel that the justice system is biased and that a Black man might not get a fair trial.

Those fears have to be confronted.



I have been advocating ratting out criminals and raising one's children properly. It is racial profiling I disagree with.

The thing is the neighborhoods in Toronto that have higher crime rates are the ones with higher black populations in them. There are no truly black neighborhoods here, but there are areas that have higher concentrations of blacks and those are trouble spots. Also if you look at the Toronto homicide map for 2012, murder happens all over the city and not just in a few areas, but guess what? The majority of them involve BLACKS.

So if you don't target black males who seem to don't give a damn where they shoot, stab and kill each other and sometimes innocent people as well, how are you going to fix the problem? If murders are not contained only in certain areas in Toronto but they occur all over the city involving young black males, then why target neighborhoods only? Doesn't it make more sense to target the demographic than only specific areas?

Bottom line is none of this would even be necessarily if black crime was such a problem here for so many damn years. I mean there's 5+ million people living in Toronto/GTA and ALL OF THEM COMBINED still produce less murder victims and less murder suspects and less shootings and stabbings than 352,000 blacks in Toronto do. There are 1.4+ million asians living here and ALL OF THEM COMBINED have committed less murder in probably the last 20 YEARS than blacks have committed in 2012 ALONE. Yes 1.4+ MILLION asians CAN'T COMMIT MORE MURDER IN THE PAST 20 YEARS than blacks have in just 2012 which isn't even over yet.

Don't you see how MESSED UP that is? That one relatively small minority is screwing up Toronto so much and yet you're worried about racial profiling?? >_>

Put it this way, if blacks had low crime rates for the next 5-10 years here, then yes I would agree that if they were profiled in any way that would be wrong. BUT that has NEVER happened at least not in all the years I've lived here and they DO deserve to be cracked down on because trying to be nice and politically correct and not offending them HAS NOT WORKED AT ALL. Some blacks have come out and said this already, but we should simply be honest and open that blacks are causing most of the problems and then tackle this issue head on. Stop dancing around it and admit what everyone knows already but can't say publicly for fear of being called racist and just get this damn problem fixed!

[kevike]

Ahh Canada! So young and naive. Fortunately for you us Americans are experts with this problem.

Crime is just a symptom of the illness, and the illness has no cure. You may think the cure is obvious, but trust me, every bleeding heart liberal in Canada will obfuscate and misdirect and you will never be allowed to administer the medicine. In fact you'll be left confused about whether an illness even exists - and if it does it was most likely caused by the environment, leaving the patient powerless to do anything. So you'll spend $billions trying to fix the environment only to find that the illness persists. Eventually you will realize their's nothing you can do but accept the illness, contain it, and be thankful it doesn't really affect you. Good Luck.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by kevike

Ahh Canada! So young and naive. Fortunately for you us Americans are experts with this problem.

Crime is just a symptom of the illness, and the illness has no cure. You may think the cure is obvious, but trust me, every bleeding heart liberal in Canada will obfuscate and misdirect and you will never be allowed to administer the medicine. In fact you'll be left confused about whether an illness even exists - and if it does it was most likely caused by the environment, leaving the patient powerless to do anything. So you'll spend $billions trying to fix the environment only to find that the illness persists. Eventually you will realize their's nothing you can do but accept the illness, contain it, and be thankful it doesn't really affect you. Good Luck.

What illness are you talking about? And for what it's worth, I live in the USA, metropolitan Atlanta to be exact, which gets much more violence than Toronto.

[BruSan]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

If racial profiling prevented crime, then the Black crime rate would be much lower than it is now. Just the fact that the Black crime is still high shows that racial profiling doesn't work. There is something you aren't understanding. Most crimes committed by Blacks are against other Black people in Black neighborhoods. And if you tabulated all of the crimes committed by Blacks in Toronto, or in the rest of Canada, still, the vast majority of Blacks in Canada are not committing crimes. It is a very small part of the Black population doing it. Even if the odds of a Black man committing a crime are higher, that still doesn't add up in terms of the total population. Odds aren't the same as the total population. Even if the odds were higher, that doesn't guarantee that every Black person who is around is a criminal.

And Acajack raised a very good point. When racial profiling is being done, it violates the basic rule of law by presuming that every individual is guilty by association.

Politically correct nonsense that effectively ties the hands of law enforcement and naturally induces a "why bother" syndrom.

I don't get any of this.

People say: "it's a relatively small number committing these crimes.
People say: Police must do something.
People say: They are committing black on black crime.
People say: "Who? Me? I did'nt see hear or smell a thing do I look like a rat to you"?
People say: They (as in some other entity) must do something about this problem but if I'm inconvenienced because MY socio-economic group is the one committing the bulk of these crimes; I still reserve the right to: 1/ demand something be done. 2/ demand the solution be pain free to myself. 3/ demand others provide the solution, funds, man hours while I myself contribute ABSOLUTELY NOTHING other than accusations YOU are not doing enough to fix MY problem.

Those dogs are pissing in YOUR yard folks so perhaps you should step up and accept some of the blame for not having taught your own dogs NOT to **** all over the place.

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by BruSan

Politically correct nonsense that effectively ties the hands of law enforcement and naturally induces a "why bother" syndrom.

I don't get any of this.

People say: "it's a relatively small number committing these crimes.
People say: Police must do something.
People say: They are committing black on black crime.
People say: "Who? Me? I did'nt see hear or smell a thing do I look like a rat to you"?
People say: They (as in some other entity) must do something about this problem but if I'm inconvenienced because MY socio-economic group is the one committing the bulk of these crimes; I still reserve the right to: 1/ demand something be done. 2/ demand the solution be pain free to myself. 3/ demand others provide the solution, funds, man hours while I myself contribute ABSOLUTELY NOTHING other than accusations YOU are not doing enough to fix MY problem.

Those dogs are pissing in YOUR yard folks so perhaps you should step up and accept some of the blame for not having taught your own dogs NOT to **** all over the place.

First of all, you don't know me at all. I don't live in the "hood". I don't live in a violent area. My parents made sure that I stay out of violent areas.

And how can I teach people how to behave if I don't live near them?

And furthermore, I don't appreciate you comparing Black people to dogs.

[illcosby]

Originally Posted by green_mariner

And furthermore, I don't appreciate you comparing Black people to dogs.

And this is why we can't ever have a decent discussion about race. No one compared black people to dogs. Your brain made a connection that wasn't there.

Dogs peeing on yards. It's an analogy. It's not OH MY GOD BLACK PEOPLE ARE DOGS. Would you be outraged if he said cute little kittums coughing up hairballs on your floor?

[green_mariner]

Originally Posted by illcosby

And this is why we can't ever have a decent discussion about race. No one compared black people to dogs. Your brain made a connection that wasn't there.

Dogs peeing on yards. It's an analogy. It's not OH MY GOD BLACK PEOPLE ARE DOGS. Would you be outraged if he said cute little kittums coughing up hairballs on your floor?

I won't lie. It doesn't take that much to make me upset, especially on subjects like this. And when I'm upset, I have a hard time thinking. In many cases, it is difficult for me to tell if someone is using an analogy or if they are being serious. I'm known by some people not to have a sense of humor, so some things I do take literally.

[Annuvin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even if we accept the dubious and incredibly insensitive argument that the victims were just black people looking for trouble or hanging out with the wrong crowd, eventually as this stuff gets more and more out of control, it will on occasion spill over into the world of ''people like you'' (using this term cautiously).

Remember Jane Creba?

Remember the Eaton Centre a few months or weeks ago?

This is why Canada needs mandatory minimum sentencing like Florida's 10-20-LIFE legislation to correct the issue. Once enacted, these laws brought about a 30% drop in gun crimes in the Sunshine State. Such laws give the so-called "at risk" groups something to think about. The smart ones will reconsider stupid decisions to shoot up crowded shopping malls and house parties over a "dis" or whatever stupidity these types consider to be a killing offense. The dumb ones will continue to end up dead or be put in a cage for long periods of time where they belong if they can't handle real life. Consecutive sentencing, getting rid of cable TV, reinstating hard labour and making prison an overall horrible place to go would also help drop those numbers. Privitization of correctional facilities is another option if the government wants to wash its hands with the cost and reformations.

Bottom line: If you can't do the time, DON'T DO THE CRIME!