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If they live for eons, they could be in the form of rocks like we see on Mars. A fast moving eon-lasting lifeform would probably manage a swift 5mm per year.
Yeah, on Earth we call slow living lifeforms plants or the symbiotes we call lichens. None of them have built toasters as far as we know.
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Size is something which is not normally considered much either. I reckon there are tiny intelligent beings on Mars yet we are looking for beings of a certain minimum size to confirm their intelligence "because to be intelligent, they need a brain of a certain size and proportion"
You reckon based on what? A bunch of photos of rock forms that via the magic of paredolia remind us of the shapes of earthly life or of human constructions? I've posted examples here ON EARTH of forms that look like human artifacts or organic forms, and that are much more effective in fooling the eye than the nonsense people keep finding in Mars images.
Regarding size and intelligence: if you mean intelligence in the abstract, yes, even microorganisms show a kind of intelligence they've evolved as survival mechanisms. The microorganisms called slime molds come together and cooperate to form slug-like mobile forms and intricate fruiting bodies. Protista hunt each other, mate, and show fairly complex behavior for one celled organisms. Show me a single one that's evolved tool use or any other proto-technological behavior. There are none, because complex behavior, insight, and the like require the computational power of a brain. Again, where are the toasters?
You imply that science believes a brain of a certain size and proportion is needed for intelligence. That's absolutely NOT true and hasn't been true for a number of decades. You're either not reading widely on the subject of the evolution of intelligence, or the material you read is dated. Here is one example of an article to the contrary:
The possibilities are more varied than we can imagine.
The possibilities are bound by physical reality: a limited number of forms of matter in the universe, a limited number of ways they can fit together and interact with each other, and the reality that organisms evolve mechanisms like intelligence for survival, not to fulfill any desire we have to find technological brethren in a harsh environment like Mars. Life on Mars, yes, and I wouldn't exclude multicellular life as a possibility. Current or past intelligent life on Mars, no way.
The possibilities are bound by physical reality: a limited number of forms of matter in the universe, a limited number of ways they can fit together and interact with each other, and the reality that organisms evolve mechanisms like intelligence for survival,
Your assumptions are not particularly scientific in that they do not include the possibilities of other lifeforms evolving on other planets in other forms than we know here on Earth.
Taking Earth and extrapolating our limited lifeforms to encompass the shapes, sizes, and structures throughout the galaxy is not going to be THEIR physical reality. It is very arrogant to think every other lifeform is going to fit into what we already have here because it isnt going to.
There is no reason why species which are small here may not be large elsewhere. Ants, preying mantis, etc are some types abducted people have reported seeing.
Maybe you will be in for a huge shock when life is acknowledged to be throughout the solar system and beyond.
Your assumptions are not particularly scientific in that they do not include the possibilities of other lifeforms evolving on other planets in other forms than we know here on Earth.
Taking Earth and extrapolating our limited lifeforms to encompass the shapes, sizes, and structures throughout the galaxy is not going to be THEIR physical reality. It is very arrogant to think every other lifeform is going to fit into what we already have here because it isnt going to.
There is no reason why species which are small here may not be large elsewhere. Ants, preying mantis, etc are some types abducted people have reported seeing.
Maybe you will be in for a huge shock when life is acknowledged to be throughout the solar system and beyond.
Are you saying that physics change depending on where you are?
First of all this is not a response to my question.
Secondly scientists are looking for all forms of life that they can think of.
While it is true that there may be forms of life out there that we are not looking for, it does not mean that we are only limited to looking for life only like life on earth.
Your assumptions are not particularly scientific in that they do not include the possibilities of other lifeforms evolving on other planets in other forms than we know here on Earth.
Taking Earth and extrapolating our limited lifeforms to encompass the shapes, sizes, and structures throughout the galaxy is not going to be THEIR physical reality. It is very arrogant to think every other lifeform is going to fit into what we already have here because it isnt going to.
There is no reason why species which are small here may not be large elsewhere. Ants, preying mantis, etc are some types abducted people have reported seeing.
The squid/octopus eye and the mammalian eye evolved independently, but are very similar structurally. This is called convergent evolution. The reason is physics: The number of solutions to a problem like high resolution sight are limited by the laws of physics.
You don't see insects the size of a rhinoceros for the same reason: the laws of physics limit the size of an organism with an exoskeleton and with the kind of respiratory system that arthropods have. You see larger terrestrial arthropods back in the past because the oxygen content was much higher -- in the late Permian, there was a dragonfly that weighed about a pound, but that's it -- because of the laws of physics.
You don't see skinless organisms walking around with their guts hanging out because of the laws of physics. This won't be different on another world.
We also know that organisms evolve to maximize reproductive fitness. No matter what chemical mechanism is used for life elsewhere, no matter how weird the life, the organisms that have the highest probability of passing on their genetic message will be the winners in the evolutionary struggle - those that don't will be the losers. What we've seen in Earth's ecological systems as I've written before (though I suspect no one bothered to read what I'd written because tl:dr) are certain roles and these will be reproduced in any ecological system throughout the cosmos: there will be organisms that will exploit raw materials in the environment to produce the energy they need to live, others that evolve to prey on and consume the raw material exploiters, parasites who get a free ride on other organisms, symbiotes who cooperate with other species for mutual benefit, and scavengers who eat the crud and dead bodies of everyone else. If there is an ecological niche where an organism can make a living, someone will evolve to exploit it. You see this even in weird environments like the black smokers on the ocean floor.
Evolution solves survival problems. The number of solutions is not infinite even if the chemical/energy/whatever systems that have evolved to support natural selection are different. This isn't arrogance, it's what we've learned over the past century and a half studying terrestrial biology and ecological systems, and figuring out the mechanisms that make one organism evolve into another.
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Maybe you will be in for a huge shock when life is acknowledged to be throughout the solar system and beyond.
And maybe you will be in for a huge shock when we fail to find life elsewhere in the solar system and beyond. But I hope not. We don't know what's out there but I suspect we'll have a better idea in the next decade or two. I hope we find something, but at this point all the photos of Martian rocks in the world prove nothing other than that hope can make us see things where they don't exist.
I can't speak for OCPaul. Just myself. I would hasten to point out a couple of things.
First of all, how life evolved on Earth may have nothing to do with how life evolved elsewhere.
I disagree strongly, for the reasons I outlined in my other post. Convergent evolution will be a common evolutionary principle wherever you go in the cosmos because evolution will by definition lead to the best solution for a problem posed by the environment within the constraints imposed by the construction materials (the structure of the organism that's evolving). Thus, bats, birds, and extinct pterosaurs all have wings; whales, fish, pinnipeds, and extinct marine reptiles all have flippers; organisms that depend highly on sight have eyes with lenses (squids/octopi, and vertebrates)
I haven't had a chance to watch this yet, but from his CV Brother Consolmagno is an astronomer specializing in the physical structure of meteorites, not an evolutionary biologist. Being an expert in one specialty doesn't make you an expert in another.
I disagree strongly, for the reasons I outlined in my other post. Convergent evolution will be a common evolutionary principle wherever you go in the cosmos because evolution will by definition lead to the best solution for a problem posed by the environment within the constraints imposed by the construction materials (the structure of the organism that's evolving). Thus, bats, birds, and extinct pterosaurs all have wings; whales, fish, pinnipeds, and extinct marine reptiles all have flippers; organisms that depend highly on sight have eyes with lenses (squids/octopi, and vertebrates)
I think perhaps you're misunderstanding my point, which is: Physics works the same across the cosmos (at least as far as we know). However, life evolved here on Earth with a mix of carbon, oxygen, and water. But that need not be the only way life can evolve in cosmos. Carbon need not be the only key ingredient of life.
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Originally Posted by Vasily
I haven't had a chance to watch this yet, but from his CV Brother Consolmagno is an astronomer specializing in the physical structure of meteorites, not an evolutionary biologist. Being an expert in one specialty doesn't make you an expert in another.
Give him the benefit of a watch before you judge. I think you might be pleasantly surprised.
I think perhaps you're misunderstanding my point, which is: Physics works the same across the cosmos (at least as far as we know). However, life evolved here on Earth with a mix of carbon, oxygen, and water. But that need not be the only way life can evolve in cosmos. Carbon need not be the only key ingredient of life.
But you did not come up with this. Scientists have been talking about this and understand that they may be looking for forms of life that are not similar to earth.
So if we do go to a place where physics are different they will look for life there. We may even have to adjust the definition of what life is a few times.
But I like how people who can deride scientists for not understanding this think they can find unknown life in a still picture.
But I like how people who can deride scientists for not understanding this think they can find unknown life in a still picture.
You mean on Mars? Yeah, I know. If there is any life on Mars --- and at this point, it looks like the answer to that question is a resounding NO --- then it is microscopic in nature.
Still, I can't help hold out hope that I'm wrong, Mars is home to a vast civilization kept secret from us, and it looks like this:
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