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It seems that common threads throughout this thread (pardon the pun) are dress code, pressure / intensity, and job security, all of which I have heard elsewhere.
One thing Americans receive in exchange for the supposed pressure and intensity of their work (and relative lack of vacation, which seems to be certain) and lack of job security is (somewhat ironically) a higher material standard of living. What would pass as "normal" in at least certain areas of the U.S. - two parents, two kids, three cars, a mini-McMansion on an acre of land in the suburbs and a cabin on a lake with a boat and ATV - would be considered living in the lap of luxury in the U.K. I suppose this is to be expected from a country with 80% of the GDP of the U.S. And even low-wage workers (those without health insurance or job stability) have iPhones, 60"+ flat-screen televisions, and "big boys' toys" such as snowmobiles and four-wheelers. An experience I suppose would be fascinating for a Brit would be to drive through a untidy trailer court, observe the dilapidation of the "mobile homes", and then see nice cars outside of them and a common place for stowing boats and snowmobiles.
Wow, you trailer park Americans earning a minimum wage that's nearly 30% less than ours must be doing pretty well to manage all that without any personal debt and while staying impressively well fed, eh? I thought everybody lived in an unheated cardboard box and bathed in the sewers like we do, so this post is a real eye-opener. What is an iPhone, anyway? I personally am accessing C-D through a yoghurt pot and a piece of string, and know no other way. Good to see you posting on our sub-forum again anyway, since from your previous posts we all know you are an expert on British culture because of your extended visits here
Wow, you trailer park Americans earning a minimum wage that's nearly 30% less than ours must be doing pretty well to manage all that without any personal debt and while staying impressively well fed, eh? I thought everybody lived in an unheated cardboard box and bathed in the sewers like we do, so this post is a real eye-opener. What is an iPhone, anyway? I personally am accessing C-D through a yoghurt pot and a piece of string, and know no other way. Good to see you posting on our sub-forum again anyway, since from your previous posts we all know you are an expert on British culture because of your extended visits here
Wow, you trailer park Americans earning a minimum wage that's nearly 30% less than ours must be doing pretty well to manage all that without any personal debt and while staying impressively well fed, eh? I thought everybody lived in an unheated cardboard box and bathed in the sewers like we do, so this post is a real eye-opener. What is an iPhone, anyway? I personally am accessing C-D through a yoghurt pot and a piece of string, and know no other way. Good to see you posting on our sub-forum again anyway, since from your previous posts we all know you are an expert on British culture because of your extended visits here
I very much appreciate the wit, I think though that while tvdxer didn't ask the question, his post begs an answer to it. Namely: What level of disposable income can lower income people in the US/UK expect?
The UK minimum wage is £6.19/hour. For a 40 hour week that equates to £247.60/week. After Tax and National Insurance that equates to £217.06/week, or £940.59/month.
The US Federal minimum wage is $7.25/hour. For a 40 hour week that equates to $290/week. After Tax that amounts to $263.37/week or $1141.25/month.
An overly simplified comparison here would note that the $1141.25/month US minimum wage equates to £709.51/month, which would make a minimum wage US worker £231.08 worse off per month than a minimum wage UK worker. What this comparison fails to compare are the relative purchasing powers of the US worker vs the UK worker, after all housing here is more expensive, many consumer goods are also more expensive. To perform a proper comparison, we would need to factor in a typical basket of consumer goods that our respective workers might buy. However, I can't nearly be bothered doing that so instead I'm going to make a series of statements.
1. There are no bloody trailer parks in the UK (excluding a tiny number of Romani people who choose to live that way for cultural reasons)
2. The UK minimum wage can only hold true for a single person, working tax credits and child tax credits would be applicable for parents or those with disabilities, increasing the UK workers disposable income by around 40% over and above their salary.
3. Universal healthcare is applicable to all UK workers
4. All UK workers have significantly greater job security
5. All UK workers have significantly more comprehensive Government welfare provision if the worker does lose his/her job.
If offered the choice of being born into a life of minimum wage work in the USA or UK, you would have to have to be insane to choose the USA. Your disposable income is similar if not lower, and you have fewer rights.
Where the disposable income of Americans starts to take off is in the upper middle and particularly in the upper classes, because the UK tax system is quite progressive. (i.e. Wealthier people in the UK pay relatively more tax than their American equivalents.) In addition, because wealth is distributed more unequally in the USA than in the UK, wealthy Americans earn more to start off with than wealthy Brits. The corollary however is not true, because poor Americans earn less than poor Brits.
It seems that common threads throughout this thread (pardon the pun) are dress code, pressure / intensity, and job security, all of which I have heard elsewhere.
One thing Americans receive in exchange for the supposed pressure and intensity of their work (and relative lack of vacation, which seems to be certain) and lack of job security is (somewhat ironically) a higher material standard of living. What would pass as "normal" in at least certain areas of the U.S. - two parents, two kids, three cars, a mini-McMansion on an acre of land in the suburbs and a cabin on a lake with a boat and ATV - would be considered living in the lap of luxury in the U.K. I suppose this is to be expected from a country with 80% of the GDP of the U.S. And even low-wage workers (those without health insurance or job stability) have iPhones, 60"+ flat-screen televisions, and "big boys' toys" such as snowmobiles and four-wheelers. An experience I suppose would be fascinating for a Brit would be to drive through a untidy trailer court, observe the dilapidation of the "mobile homes", and then see nice cars outside of them and a common place for stowing boats and snowmobiles.
My husband and I have some good friends who are Belgian. We visit each other fairly often - they come here or we go there.
They are very well off - in Belgium. They have a lovely home there on the outskirts of Brussels.
They are AMAZED at the low cost of real estate in our area (Northeast Texas). They love to drive around and look at properties for sale. They are also very impressed with our 2400 square foot house and one acre of land in a neighborhood, and with the huge walk in closets, large master suites, etc that are common in US homes. When we told them what we paid for our property, I thought we were going to have to pick them up off the floor!
I very much appreciate the wit, I think though that while tvdxer didn't ask the question, his post begs an answer to it. Namely: What level of disposable income can lower income people in the US/UK expect?
The UK minimum wage is £6.19/hour. For a 40 hour week that equates to £247.60/week. After Tax and National Insurance that equates to £217.06/week, or £940.59/month.
The US Federal minimum wage is $7.25/hour. For a 40 hour week that equates to $290/week. After Tax that amounts to $263.37/week or $1141.25/month.
An overly simplified comparison here would note that the $1141.25/month US minimum wage equates to £709.51/month, which would make a minimum wage US worker £231.08 worse off per month than a minimum wage UK worker. What this comparison fails to compare are the relative purchasing powers of the US worker vs the UK worker, after all housing here is more expensive, many consumer goods are also more expensive. To perform a proper comparison, we would need to factor in a typical basket of consumer goods that our respective workers might buy. However, I can't nearly be bothered doing that so instead I'm going to make a series of statements.
1. There are no bloody trailer parks in the UK (excluding a tiny number of Romani people who choose to live that way for cultural reasons)
2. The UK minimum wage can only hold true for a single person, working tax credits and child tax credits would be applicable for parents or those with disabilities, increasing the UK workers disposable income by around 40% over and above their salary.
3. Universal healthcare is applicable to all UK workers
4. All UK workers have significantly greater job security
5. All UK workers have significantly more comprehensive Government welfare provision if the worker does lose his/her job.
If offered the choice of being born into a life of minimum wage work in the USA or UK, you would have to have to be insane to choose the USA. Your disposable income is similar if not lower, and you have fewer rights.
Where the disposable income of Americans starts to take off is in the upper middle and particularly in the upper classes, because the UK tax system is quite progressive. (i.e. Wealthier people in the UK pay relatively more tax than their American equivalents.) In addition, because wealth is distributed more unequally in the USA than in the UK, wealthy Americans earn more to start off with than wealthy Brits. The corollary however is not true, because poor Americans earn less than poor Brits.
Eoin
I agree with a lot of this - but contrary to the news, there are more middle and upper class Americans than there are "poor Americans." So - comparing poor American workers to poor UK workers may be interesting but it's not really indicative of the "average worker" in either area.
We have working tax credits, child tax credits, as well as tax credits for sales tax, property taxes, mortgage insurance, charitable contributions, child care, health expenses, etc etc etc for lower income, middle income, and upper incomes.
If a worker here loses his/her job we have unemployment (for up to about two years), and a very wide array of all sorts of social programs at the federal, state, and even local level for such individuals and families.
The vast, vast, vast majority of Americans don't live in trailer parks OR make anywhere close to minimum wage. Most Americans have very affordable health insurance and access to excellent medical care.
My husband and I have some good friends who are Belgian. We visit each other fairly often - they come here or we go there.
They are very well off - in Belgium. They have a lovely home there on the outskirts of Brussels.
They are AMAZED at the low cost of real estate in our area (Northeast Texas). They love to drive around and look at properties for sale. They are also very impressed with our 2400 square foot house and one acre of land in a neighborhood, and with the huge walk in closets, large master suites, etc that are common in US homes. When we told them what we paid for our property, I thought we were going to have to pick them up off the floor!
Your house sounds like a $300,000 property in my area and that's still cheap by Belgian standards I bet!
Your house sounds like a $300,000 property in my area and that's still cheap by Belgian standards I bet!
LOL you hit the nail on the head - actually it's about $285,000 around here. Less than three years old. Custom built, all the bells and whistles. Brick, stone, vaulted ceilings, hardwood and tile floors, granite countertops in kitchen and all bathrooms, extensive landscaping, huge flagstone patio with pergola, hot tub, wrought iron fence, etc etc etc. I love it.
Don't get me wrong - I am not bashing Belgium or the UK in any way - just clarifying.
I agree with a lot of this - but contrary to the news, there are more middle and upper class Americans than there are "poor Americans." So - comparing poor American workers to poor UK workers may be interesting but it's not really indicative of the "average worker" in either area.
This is very true, and I hope my post isn't mis-interpreted to mean that I view the entire US as being subject to the conditions I described, perhaps I ought to have clarified that. My response was tailored to the implication of tvdxer's post that even the poor in the US have some semblance of a good life because they have iPhones.
Quote:
We have working tax credits, child tax credits, as well as tax credits for sales tax, property taxes, mortgage insurance, charitable contributions, child care, health expenses, etc etc etc for lower income, middle income, and upper incomes.
If a worker here loses his/her job we have unemployment (for up to about two years), and a very wide array of all sorts of social programs at the federal, state, and even local level for such individuals and families.
This is also very true! Until recently I worked in the UK benefits system and as extra curricular activity (i.e. to get promoted faster) I undertook a course which compared the efficacy of various welfare systems around the world. While I appreciate that the USA can be a difficult country to summarise because of varying provision between the States, it's broadly true to say that welfare provision is less 'generous' in the US than in the UK, both in renumeration (the value of assistance), the form of renumeration (i.e. ratio of food stamps to cash) and in its scope. (The qualifying conditions necessary to receive assistance.) I don't mean to sound as if I think the UK is any sort of benchmark in this regard, if there is such a country it would be Sweden. However, the likes of 'tent cities' or 'trailer parks' would be unthinkable anywhere in Western Europe because of the differences in the levels of coverage I'm describing.
Quote:
The vast, vast, vast majority of Americans don't live in trailer parks OR make anywhere close to minimum wage. Most Americans have very affordable health insurance and access to excellent medical care.
I can appreciate why you might feel the need to qualify this, as on internet fora there is often a gap in understanding between truth and stereotype, however I offer my assurances that I'm under no illusions as to the reality that is middle-class America. I said earlier that you'd have to be insane to choose to be born in the USA over the UK if you knew in advance that you'd be confined to dead-end jobs, I'm happy to accept that if one had the choice of being born into a privileged family, they would enjoy more material comforts in the USA than in the UK.
LOL you hit the nail on the head - actually it's about $285,000 around here. Less than three years old. Custom built, all the bells and whistles. Brick, stone, vaulted ceilings, hardwood and tile floors, granite countertops in kitchen and all bathrooms, extensive landscaping, huge flagstone patio with pergola, hot tub, wrought iron fence, etc etc etc. I love it.
Don't get me wrong - I am not bashing Belgium or the UK in any way - just clarifying.
Same with me. I'd love to move to the UK, but property prices there are scary to think about.
Brits, yes, I know that's mostly bigger city properties that are expensive but how are the unemployment rates outside of the south? Doesn't look very good, unfortunately.
I very much appreciate the wit, I think though that while tvdxer didn't ask the question, his post begs an answer to it. Namely: What level of disposable income can lower income people in the US/UK expect?
The UK minimum wage is £6.19/hour. For a 40 hour week that equates to £247.60/week. After Tax and National Insurance that equates to £217.06/week, or £940.59/month.
The US Federal minimum wage is $7.25/hour. For a 40 hour week that equates to $290/week. After Tax that amounts to $263.37/week or $1141.25/month.
An overly simplified comparison here would note that the $1141.25/month US minimum wage equates to £709.51/month, which would make a minimum wage US worker £231.08 worse off per month than a minimum wage UK worker. What this comparison fails to compare are the relative purchasing powers of the US worker vs the UK worker, after all housing here is more expensive, many consumer goods are also more expensive. To perform a proper comparison, we would need to factor in a typical basket of consumer goods that our respective workers might buy. However, I can't nearly be bothered doing that so instead I'm going to make a series of statements.
1. There are no bloody trailer parks in the UK (excluding a tiny number of Romani people who choose to live that way for cultural reasons)
2. The UK minimum wage can only hold true for a single person, working tax credits and child tax credits would be applicable for parents or those with disabilities, increasing the UK workers disposable income by around 40% over and above their salary.
3. Universal healthcare is applicable to all UK workers
4. All UK workers have significantly greater job security
5. All UK workers have significantly more comprehensive Government welfare provision if the worker does lose his/her job.
If offered the choice of being born into a life of minimum wage work in the USA or UK, you would have to have to be insane to choose the USA. Your disposable income is similar if not lower, and you have fewer rights.
Where the disposable income of Americans starts to take off is in the upper middle and particularly in the upper classes, because the UK tax system is quite progressive. (i.e. Wealthier people in the UK pay relatively more tax than their American equivalents.) In addition, because wealth is distributed more unequally in the USA than in the UK, wealthy Americans earn more to start off with than wealthy Brits. The corollary however is not true, because poor Americans earn less than poor Brits.
Eoin
I disagree with your message. There is more of a safety net in the UK for sure and access to medical care is absolutely better, but I wouldn't want to live on welfare in either country! I have a slightly better income here than I had in the UK but the cost of living in the UK was massively more expensive than here. I have a much better deal here on one income than I had on two at home. In the UK I couldn't have afforded more than an apartment where I lived. I lived in Windsor which is expensive but the cheaper areas would mean moving to Slough or Reading (shudder!) and they are not cheap!!
Job security is greater in the UK for sure. If you have a good job than material things (house/car etc) are more easily available here, if that floats your boat. Given the current conservative budgeting I would say that the easier access to education that existed in the UK is dwindling.
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