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The fact that you keep writing novels on your Irishness and how overly proud you are says it all. The only person that seems to care about it all is you.
I never proclaimed that Irish Americans get on everyone's nerves, just the types that drone on about their family histories to anyone that'll listen...yawn.
You're doing a pretty good job of proving my points. I'm sorry to hurt your feelings about you being an American but nobody cares about you being of Irish descent in Ireland. You think that impresses people there?? They should accept you more or perhaps shake your hand when you walk into a supermarket or something?
Okay,so the line about Irish-Americans boasting, proclaimations and getting on everyone's nerves wasn't you? I'm sorry. I thought it was. You do seem to be stuck in a mindset that caricatures Irish peope though, creating the illusion that I came on this thread with a beaming smile to declare to anyone who'll listen "Hey, I'm of Irish descent, shake my hand". That's extremely disingenuous. I was in fact responding to your (and a couple of other posters) arrogant assertions that you somehow encompass the opiion of an entire nation and have some lofty held right to speak on their behalf. Even though you are in fact English, and not from a country generally associated with warm and generous opinions towards the Irish historically (from a certain section of society anyway, and a stuck up, insular kind of Englishman and woman anyway). My parents are both Irish and are very fond of the irish-American communities they have connections to. Irish-American communities are also made up up of many Irish people who move over there anyway so to create divisions just to sneer at some very ignorant stereotypes is very hypocritical when the Irish-American community you deride is actually made up of tons of Irish immigrants anyway. It doesn't make sense.
Besides, you're wrong, I was born in Ireland and spent the first three years of my life living there. But anyway, again, you're missing the point. No-one's trying to prove anything to you. No-one cares if you want to shake their hand. No-one's feelings are hurt and the fact that you believe that you can hurt people's feelings by making ill-informed judgments on their validity to recognise their own identity and heritage inan internet forum is rather odd. This again seems to presume that Irish-Americans are waiting with baited breath for some divine recognition from you as to whether they can officially achieve full 'Irish recognition status'.
I'm sorry, but you're not that important, they couldn't care less. Just as if an Irish New Yorker or Boston barman were to inform the millionth giddy eyed Irish tourist coming through the doors that they'd seen a million other Irishman just like him it wouldn't particularly bother him too much either. Humanity isn't that fragile, and if you knew your history, you'd know Irish Americans certainly aren't. You seem to be bursting with the misguided premise that you are enlightening the world with a blinding revelation that hasn't already been discussed, laughed and argued about in every Irish bar from Boston to New York to Philidelphia throughout the course of Irish immigration to the US and vice versa.
But like I said, if Ireland despised their American cousins so much, they wouldn't flock to the communities in New York and Boston in the numbers they do. The connections are there, whether you like that fact or not. And as you're English, I don't see why you'd particularly care anyway.
Last edited by Fear&Whiskey; 06-24-2010 at 02:06 PM..
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
8,852 posts, read 10,458,803 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smtchll
Here in the Southern US a lot people I talk to think that they're Irish, as in their ancestors were Irish Catholics who converted to Protestantism when they moved down South, LOL... I don't think they realize that they're probably descended from Ulster-Scots who were in the US long before the Irish Catholics. This is why the number of Irish-Americans is really high while the number of Scotch-Irish Americans in really low. Southerners are confused. My family included.
That's a really good point re: the majority of the South (and Appalachia) being descended from the Scots-Irish, aka "Ulster-Scots", even though alot of them self-identify more with the "Irish" side. And in fact, didn't the Ulster Scots mostly come from the "borderlands" of Scotland (adjoining England)? And many of them are descended from the notorious "Border Reavers", who continually ravaged the borderlands going all the way back to the Romans (see "Hadrian's Wall"), and they were especially fond of drinking, pillaging, fighting and carrying off women (hey, more fun than farming). Apparently King James I figured that "inviting" them to the Ulster "Plantation" was a quick solution to not only their continual skirmishes on the border, but it also helped "colonize" those pesky Irish... so it was "2-fer" for the Crown!
But eventually an estimated 250,000 migrated to America during the colonial era. And folks like Senator Jim Webb of VA, have written about their own Scots-Irish ancestry ("Born Fighting"), suggesting that alot of the fierce egalitarianism and taste for "freedom" in the colonial fight for independence, can be attributed directly to their early influence in the Americas. Arguably much of what we now consider "redneck" or "hillbilly" reflects Scots-Irish values, although it's unfortunate there isn't a better name that identifies & acknowledges their unique culture.
Okay,so the line about Irish-Americans boasting, proclaimations and getting on everyone's nerves wasn't you? I'm sorry. I thought it was. You do seem to be stuck in a mindset that caricatures Irish peope though, creating the illusion that I came on this thread with a beaming smile to declare to anyone who'll listen "Hey, I'm of Irish descent, shake my hand". That's extremely disingenuous. I was in fact responding to your (and a couple of other posters) arrogant assertions that you somehow encompass the opiion of an entire nation and have some lofty held right to speak on their behalf. Even though you are in fact English, and not from a country generally associated with warm and generous opinions towards the Irish historically (from a certain section of society anyway, and a stuck up, insular kind of Englishman and woman anyway). My parents are both Irish and are very fond of the irish-American communities they have connections to. Irish-American communities are also made up up of many Irish people who move over there anyway so to create divisions just to sneer at some very ignorant stereotypes is very hypocritical when the Irish-American community you deride is actually made up of tons of Irish immigrants anyway. It doesn't make sense.
Besides, you're wrong, I was born in Ireland and spent the first three years of my life living there. But anyway, again, you're missing the point. No-one's trying to prove anything to you. No-one cares if you want to shake their hand. No-one's feelings are hurt and the fact that you believe that you can hurt people's feelings by making ill-informed judgments on their validity to recognise their own identity and heritage inan internet forum is rather odd. This again seems to presume that Irish-Americans are waiting with baited breath for some divine recognition from you as to whether they can officially achieve full 'Irish recognition status'.
I'm sorry, but you're not that important, they couldn't care less. Just as if an Irish New Yorker or Boston barman were to inform the millionth giddy eyed Irish tourist coming through the doors that they'd seen a million other Irishman just like him it wouldn't particularly bother him too much either. Humanity isn't that fragile, and if you knew your history, you'd know Irish Americans certainly aren't. You seem to be bursting with the misguided premise that you are enlightening the world with a blinding revelation that hasn't already been discussed, laughed and argued about in every Irish bar from Boston to New York to Philidelphia throughout the course of Irish immigration to the US and vice versa.
But like I said, if Ireland despised their American cousins so much, they wouldn't flock to the communities in New York and Boston in the numbers they do. The connections are there, whether you like that fact or not. And as you're English, I don't see why you'd particularly care anyway.
No, I never said I was English...but I don't really care to read though your monologue anymore and assert my nationality/ism to anyone. I'm American, I don't wave flags or pretend I'm anything more than a typical mutt of an American...
I have however, lived in Ireland with my Irish husband and children with my in-laws. I'm not that insecure to have to add where my mom gave birth to me to prove how connected I am to a specific culture.
PS..I never said anything about "Ireland despising their American cousins". That's you making stuff up that I never said.
What, you think I haven't lived in Ireland? Are you insane? I still visit Ireland regularly,very often in fact. At least twice a year I visit Dublin, Limerick and Cork regularly and am very well connected to my friends and family there. I have done all my life and still have more family in Ireland than anywhere else. Am I still excluded form my own country's affairs or can I form an opinion now?
What was the whole premise of your argument then? That tourists shouldn't go to a country and expect to be shaken by the hand? That could apply to any tourist anywhere in the world. I know loads of people with Italian heritage, Spanish heritage, Australian heritage, Indian heritage, African heritage, Chinese heritage and Jamaican heritage who have just as strong a link to their roots and who visit relatives in those countries very regularly. Many of them might also find a different country than they had expected but does that ender their identity automatically irrelevant too?
And there's no point getting niggly about my mistaking your nationality. You made quite a few assumptions yourself there. In fact they appeared to form the foundation of your entire argument. My blood is Irish and all my family and friends are Irish. I feel no need to assert my Irishness either which is why you were able to wrongly assume that I was ten generations removed and somehow apllicable to your stereotypical depiction of a beamingingly deluded man living in the US off pipe dreams and Irish imagery of St. Patrick, leprochauns playing the fiddle and bowls of lucky charms whilst spending every waking hour thinking to myself...."mmmm, what can I do today to show the entire world how Irish I am. I know, I'll kiss da blarney stone, eat me lucky charms and play da cat and da fiddle whilst making sure everyone has to know how Irish I am, got nothing better to do wit me life, after all".
And cccording to your bizarre rules and regulations anyone who mentions their family in relation to their heritage is insecure (even though you yourself rely on your husband's association to Ireland as the basis for your right to speak on another nation's behalf) and that I no longer have the right to form an opinion about anything Irish related. On the basis that you are better qualified on the grounds that you are, er....... American? Doesn't that itself contradict everything you've said in your previous posts? Doesn't your whole argument revolve around the premise that Americans have no right to form any opinion or relationship to Ireland or its culture? Yet you not only get to have your say on Irish culture as someone totally detached from Irish ancestry but you somehow get to decide how anyone else can perceive Ireland in relation to the entire world as well. Hey, I lived in Spain for a while you know, maybe I should try and re-write Spanish history on that basis and tell them where they're all going so badly wrong. I even know how to make a tortilla. Does that qualify me to send all the Spanish holidaying in their family homes from other parts of the world packing and to inform them that they no longer have any right to celebrate Spanish culture when they return to France, italy, South America or Florida? Yeah, I'm sure they'll appreciate that.
But then maybe you are right. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe you are the chosen one. I'm only Irish, but you lived there with your husband so that renders any viewpoints I may hold about my own country automatically redundant. I see. Maybe I should submit to your vast fountain of knowledge about my country then. You must be the divine oracle that I've heard so much about. Sorry, can see how so badly wrong I've been now. The skies have parted and a big finger has pointed down from the sky that has decreed with clarifying finality "this is will how it shall be from now on". I didn't realise who you were, I will now hang my head in shame. I mean, what do I know about my own country when someone as enlightened as you can explain everything to me as a mere mortal? Your argument was profound, balanced and very reasonable. And maybe I'll find a glistening pot of gold at the bottom of me bowl of lucky charms this fine, velvet sunrise too. "Top a da mornin ta ya mam!"
Last edited by Fear&Whiskey; 06-25-2010 at 03:43 AM..
Well, I just found out I'm part Irish and I'm excited! Sorry, I haven't read all 11 pages of this thread, just the last one. Will have to go back and read as I'm sure it's interesting.
So is clongirl saying it somehow doesn't count if you're family came over generations ago? I've always known about my Scottish heritage but it's very meaningful to me knowing that my great great great granparents on my father's side came over from Ireland in the early 1800's. What? Am I making clongirl's point of being obnoxious and over the top about their Irish roots? I just recently found out and I'm happy! What's wrong with that?
Who says, "Americans have no right to form any opinion or relationship to Ireland or its culture?"
BTW Fear and Whiskey, I think my family might have come from Cork.
Well, I just found out I'm part Irish and I'm excited! Sorry, I haven't read all 11 pages of this thread, just the last one. Will have to go back and read as I'm sure it's interesting.
So is clongirl saying it somehow doesn't count if you're family came over generations ago? I've always known about my Scottish heritage but it's very meaningful to me knowing that my great great great granparents on my father's side came over from Ireland in the early 1800's. What? Am I making clongirl's point of being obnoxious and over the top about their Irish roots? I just recently found out and I'm happy! What's wrong with that?
Who says, "Americans have no right to form any opinion or relationship to Ireland or its culture?"
BTW Fear and Whiskey, I think my family might have come from Cork.
Cool. My ggrandad came from Co Cork in 1851 and I was excited to find out when he left. As far as I know he's the last ancestor to leave Ireland so I don't call myself Irish-American. Too much of a mutt anyway. I'm American but love to know my roots.
Well, I just found out I'm part Irish and I'm excited! Sorry, I haven't read all 11 pages of this thread, just the last one. Will have to go back and read as I'm sure it's interesting.
So is clongirl saying it somehow doesn't count if you're family came over generations ago? I've always known about my Scottish heritage but it's very meaningful to me knowing that my great great great granparents on my father's side came over from Ireland in the early 1800's. What? Am I making clongirl's point of being obnoxious and over the top about their Irish roots? I just recently found out and I'm happy! What's wrong with that?
Who says, "Americans have no right to form any opinion or relationship to Ireland or its culture?"
BTW Fear and Whiskey, I think my family might have come from Cork.
As YankinScotland says, there's nothing wrong with that at all. How much you decide to acknowledge your roots is up to you. Alot of Americans see a duality between been Irish and American hence the Irish-American term and some are just proud of their heritage like YankinScotland. I don't see anything wrong with either choice and I'm sure you'll never hear an Irish parent, grandparent or great-grandparent saying to their grandchildren, "Whatever you do, let go of your Irishness". Of course they'd want you to at the very least take some pride in your roots and history is part of who we are today so why sould we ignore our roots? Do we also ignore the sacrifices made by those who fought against facism in World War 2 because it has no bearing on where we are today? I don't think we should.
I know for a fact that there are many in Ireland who also take pride in Irish-American history and when John. F Kennedy was shot my mother recalled there was a deep sense of mourning in Dublin. And you only have to look at Bill Clinton's (and other American Presidents and diplomats) crucial role in the peace process of Northern Ireland to see there is great solidarity between Irish and Irish-American communities. The American input into this process was seen as a moderating influence and one that was seen as stabilising because rightly or wrongly the American Government was seen as balancing Republican concerns in Ireland just as the British Government was viewed by many in Ireland as leaning towards the Ulster protestant community. I know Bill Clinton and other diplomats would view their role as impartial but the Irish population knew that pressure from Irish communities in America would make certain US political representatives would be more likely not to ignore their concerns and this is why America played such an integral role in overseeing the Good Friday Agreement.
I would definitely reccomend visiting Cork, it's a beautiful place and still one that retains so much of the character that makes Ireland such a special place. Last time I went there I visited a wonderful fish restaurant by the coast and it was a picturesque setting, the food was superb and it was situated in a wonderful place. The wedding I attended too was one of the best ever. A band of Irish travellers came into the pub and though there was a bit of a culture clash between the travellers and the Irish there (especially the Dubliners) we all had a great time and I hadn't laughed so much for a long time. Great night.
There are parts of Cork where any visitor would be viewed as someone ripe for a bit of gentle ribbing but that's part of the fun. I've always had a great time there and I'm sure you will too. Of course as much as any visitor is removed from the day to day life of any place they are visiting you will be viewed as an outsider. Just as someone from Dublin would be. But the chances are they'll be just as interested in America as you'll be with Ireland and you'll certainly have a great time there. I always have. I'd certainly reccomend visiting Cork and travelling throughout Ireland. Donegal is a place where I have no family but another place I visited recently to see an old friend who moved there. Astonishingly beautiful place. I hope you get round to visiting Ireland some day jayhawks.
Last edited by Fear&Whiskey; 06-25-2010 at 05:36 AM..
As YankinScotland says, there's nothing wrong with that at all. How much you decide to acknowledge your roots is up to you. Alot of Americans see a duality between been Irish and American hence the Irish-American term and some are just proud of their heritage like YankinScotland. I don't see anything wrong with either choice and I'm sure you'll never hear an Irish parent, grandparent or great-grandparent saying to their grandchildren, "Whatever you do, let go of your Irishness". Of course they'd want you to at the very least take some pride in your roots and history is part of who we are today so why sould we ignore our roots? Do we also ignore the sacrifices made by those who fought against facism in World War 2 because it has no bearing on where we are today? I don't think we should.
I know for a fact that there are many in Ireland who also take pride in Irish-American history and when John. F Kennedy was shot my mother recalled there was a deep sense of mourning in Dublin. And you only have to look at Bill Clinton's (and other American Presidents and diplomats) crucial role in the peace process of Northern Ireland to see there is great solidarity between Irish and Irish-American communities. The American input into this process was seen as a moderating influence and one that was seen as stabilising because rightly or wrongly the American Government was seen as balancing Republican concerns in Ireland just as the British Government was viewed by many in Ireland as leaning towards the Ulster protestant community. I know Bill Clinton and other diplomats would view their role as impartial but the Irish population knew that pressure from Irish communities in America would make certain US political representatives would be more likely not to ignore their concerns and this is why America played such an integral role in overseeing the Good Friday Agreement.
I would definitely reccomend visiting Cork, it's a beautiful place and still one that retains so much of the character that makes Ireland such a special place. Last time I went there I visited a wonderful fish restaurant by the coast and it was a picturesque setting, the food was superb and it was situated in a wonderful place. The wedding I attended too was one of the best ever. A band of Irish travellers came into the pub and though there was a bit of a culture clash between the travellers and the Irish there (especially the Dubliners) we all had a great time and I hadn't laughed so much for a long time. Great night.
There are parts of Cork where any visitor would be viewed as someone ripe for a bit of gentle ribbing but that's part of the fun. I've always had a great time there and I'm sure you will too. Of course as much as any visitor is removed from the day to day life of any place they are visiting you will be viewed as an outsider. Just as someone from Dublin would be. But the chances are they'll be just as interested in America as you'll be with Ireland and you'll certainly have a great time there. I always have. I'd certainly reccomend visiting Cork and travelling throughout Ireland. Donegal is a place where I have no family but another place I visited recently to see an old friend who moved there. Astonishingly beautiful place. I hope you get round to visiting Ireland some day jayhawks.
You have entirely missed my points as well as accusing me of writing things that I haven't even said, but I can tell that you're very eager to continue writing your novel...so please, go on.
PS...Jayhawks, I never said to not acknowledge your roots, I don't know where you've even read that. I'm discussing the obnoxiousness of many Irish Americans that think their lives revolve around a country that they've never been. A romanticised notion of some old country they've seen in film. The "Erin go Bragh's" and in your face "Plastic Paddy" mentality.
I really enjoyed reading your post. Especially when you were talking about great grandparents,grandparents, and parents, that you'll never hear any of them say, what ever you do, let go of your Irishness. Now I'm picturing my great great grandparents speaking with an Irish brogue. See this gives me a much better sense of identity!
It's neat to know that Ireland feels a connection with America as well.
I've never been there but sure would love to visit. I know I'd want to go back again and again. Wouldn't mind the gentle ribbing either.The wedding in Cork sounded lovely. Thank you for sharing about the good laughs you had. I'm not positive that is where my family came from, but when I looked up the surname Condon, which is my great great great grandfather's last name, it said they came from Cork. Same with my great great great grandmother. Her maiden name was McCarthy. A website says both these clans lived in County Cork.
They were married in Ireland and as a young couple came to America. Part of me always wanted to be Irish so that's why I was so excited tofind out that I am!
Clongirl, no hard feelings. It's just that when you learn part of your heritage of course you are going to feel a strong connection and love for Ireland.
That doesn't make someone a "plastic paddy". But thanks for the disparaging comments. I have deep roots in Ireland and those are my people. I don't see how this is in your face Irish mentality. I realize you were not accusing me personally of that but what you described others that way.
I'll tell you whats in your face is when hispanics who are enrolled in high school in my hometown in Texas displayed the Mexican flag ABOVE the American flag in the school on Cinco de Mayo. Now that's obnoxious. And for American kids to be told they can't wear a T shirt with an American flag on it, just because it was Cinco de Mayo? These kids (not in Texas but another state) were told to turn their shirts inside out. What is happening to America! There is something very wrong with scenario.
Anyway, that's not the topic of this thread though. I'm just responding to the in your face mentality comment.
YankinScotland, thanks for responding. It really is fun learning about ancestors.
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See this gives me a much better sense of identity! 
