Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Here's how I see it. As usual, I prefer to illustrate my point by way of analogy:
I'm a leftie. As all lefties know, being a leftie can really suck at times. 90% of the population is completely oblivious to our plight. You have a problem ironing because the cord is on the right side of the iron? Tough. Problem using a ruler or scissors? Tough. Did you smear your handwriting in elementary school? Tough. Does that new gun you bought shoot hot cartridges directly into your face? Tough. Does your iPhone drop calls? Steve Jobs didn't care. He pretty much told southpaws to "get over it." We spend our whole entire lives living in a world set up for righties. And the lucky righties never have to think twice about whether their SAT/GRE/MCAT/LSAT location will have a desk to accommodate their "difference." Being right-handed is "normal," and in some sense, it's actually a privilege.
Gentrifiers, most of whom are white, are similar to righties. They've never really had to accommodate others. For example, the average black person working in corporate America has to learn more about Tom Petty, Phish and movies like Juno than the average young white person working in corporate America has to learn about the Barcays, Con Funk Shun, or Mahogany. A minority often has to work to catch up with the cultural benchmarks of the dominant culture. Otherwise, you may find yourself completely lost when one of your co-workers comes to a Halloween party with a pillow under her shirt and a bottle of Sunny D. Most of your co-workers will be sublimely oblivious to the fact that you don't share the same cultural references.
Gentrifiers bring this same obliviousness to the inner city. "What do you mean the neighborhood association voted down dog parks in favor of new trash cans for seniors?" "Why are these people blasting their music out loud for the whole neighborhood to hear?" The heart of the issue, imo, is a group of people that's used to having their way moving into an area with a well-defined culture and showing little willingness to assimilate into that culture.
With Memorial Day coming up, it'll be interesting to see what the demographics of block parties from Brooklyn to DC will look like.
Here's how I see it. As usual, I prefer to illustrate my point by way of analogy:
I'm a leftie. As all lefties know, being a leftie can really suck at times. 90% of the population is completely oblivious to our plight. You have a problem ironing because the cord is on the right side of the iron? Tough. Problem using a ruler or scissors? Tough. Did you smear your handwriting in elementary school? Tough. Does that new gun you bought shoot hot cartridges directly into your face? Tough. Does your iPhone drop calls? Steve Jobs didn't care. He pretty much told southpaws to "get over it." We spend our whole entire lives living in a world set up for righties. And the lucky righties never have to think twice about whether their SAT/GRE/MCAT/LSAT location will have a desk to accommodate their "difference." Being right-handed is "normal," and in some sense, it's actually a privilege.
Gentrifiers, most of whom are white, are similar to righties. They've never really had to accommodate others. For example, the average black person working in corporate America has to learn more about Tom Petty, Phish and movies like Juno than the average young white person working in corporate America has to learn about the Barcays, Con Funk Shun, or Mahogany. A minority often has to work to catch up with the cultural benchmarks of the dominant culture. Otherwise, you may find yourself completely lost when one of your co-workers comes to a Halloween party with a pillow under her shirt and a bottle of Sunny D. Most of your co-workers will be sublimely oblivious to the fact that you don't share the same cultural references.
Gentrifiers bring this same obliviousness to the inner city. "What do you mean the neighborhood association voted down dog parks in favor of new trash cans for seniors?" "Why are these people blasting their music out loud for the whole neighborhood to hear?" The heart of the issue, imo, is a group of people that's used to having their way moving into an area with a well-defined culture and showing little willingness to assimilate into that culture.
With Memorial Day coming up, it'll be interesting to see what the demographics of block parties from Brooklyn to DC will look like.
Thoughts.
1. Im jewish and have had lots of experience learning about everything from Christmas parties to white bread and mayo. The assumption that all "white people" are alike is silly.
2. The assumption that gentrification only involves black areas is also silly. It often involves white working class areas - certain in east and south baltimore it does
3. when large numbers of people move to an area they seldom assimilate to the local culture (if that local culture is not the dominant national culture) If they did we would have a lot more inner city blacks who appreciate Klezmer and Yiddish humor, or Irish taverns, or cook Sicilian food. The history of ethnic succession in cities is succession, NOT assimilation to minority cultures.
4. There are alot of whites interested in black culture - especially jazz, r&b, etc. Some are interested in more recent urban black music - but AFAICT most of them live in the suburbs and don't move to city neighborhoods http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wigger
4. Im pretty sure lots of black people have dogs. Just like lots of them bike. And a lot of them like classical music.
Last edited by brooklynborndad; 05-22-2012 at 02:43 PM..
1. Im jewish and have had lots of experience learning about everything from Christmas parties to white bread and mayo. The assumption that all "white people" are alike is silly.
Oy vey! Where did I say that all white people are alike? I simply said that most gentrifiers are white, which is true. I'm not going to spend much time responding to this post because you ALWAYS address these fabricated arguments that you wish the person you think you're responding to had made.
And as someone who is both black and Jewish, I can assure you that blacks have a much more difficult time adjusting to all-white environments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
2. The assumption that gentrification only involves black areas is also silly. It often involves white working class areas - certain in east and south baltimore it does
That's not what I said. I mentioned black people to illustrate the point of a minority having to conform to a majority culture. I did not say that "gentrification only involves black areas." You just wanted to make a counter to an argument that was never proffered in the first place.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
3. when large numbers of people move to an area they seldom assimilate to the local culture (if that local culture is not the dominant national culture) If they did we would have a lot more inner city blacks who appreciate Klezmer and Yiddish humor, or Irish taverns, or cook Sicilian food. The history of ethnic succession in cities is succession, NOT assimilation to minority cultures.
The issue I was addressing is not so much a purely race thing as it is an issue that's strongly correlated with race. Yuppies, who are overwhelmingly white, will also move into an Italian or Polish neighborhood and be just as oblivious to their culture as they would be to the culture and the people in a predominantly black neighborhood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad
4. Im pretty sure lots of black people have dogs. Just like lots of them bike.
And this has what to do with people moving into a neighborhood and being completely oblivious to everything around them?
Oy vey! Where did I say that all white people are alike? I simply said that most gentrifiers are white, which is true. I'm not going to spend much time responding to this post because you ALWAYS address these fabricated arguments that you wish the person you think you're responding to had made.
And as someone who is both black and Jewish, I can assure you that blacks have a much more difficult time adjusting to all-white environments.
That's not what I said. I mentioned black people to illustrate the point of a minority having to conform to a majority culture. I did not say that "gentrification only involves black areas." You just wanted to make a counter to an argument that was never proffered in the first place.
The issue I was addressing is not so much a purely race thing as it is an issue that's strongly correlated with race. Yuppies, who are overwhelmingly white, will also move into an Italian or Polish neighborhood and be just as oblivious to their culture as they would be to the culture and the people in a predominantly black neighborhood.
And this has what to do with people moving into a neighborhood and being completely oblivious to everything around them?
Judging by the frequency and tone of your posts in the last few weeks, I'm guessing your neighborhood is being overrun by people like this: URL has a profanity.
BTW I'm white and HATE Juno and Phish.
Yeah the URL doesn't work but you can get the idea just from lookign at the error page
Last edited by munchitup; 05-22-2012 at 03:34 PM..
Oy vey! Where did I say that all white people are alike? I simply said that most gentrifiers are white, which is true.
"Gentrifiers, most of whom are white, are similar to righties. They've never really had to accommodate others"
They HAVE had to accommodate others, if they are not all the same.
Quote:
That's not what I said. I mentioned black people to illustrate the point of a minority having to conform to a majority culture. I did not say that "gentrification only involves black areas." You just wanted to make a counter to an argument that was never proffered in the first place.
"Gentrifiers, most of whom are white, are similar to righties. They've never really had to accommodate others"
Quote:
The issue I was addressing is not so much a purely race thing as it is an issue that's strongly correlated with race. Yuppies, who are overwhelmingly white, will also move into an Italian or Polish neighborhood and be just as oblivious to their culture as they would be to the culture and the people in a predominantly black neighborhood.?
AFAICT gentrifiers are far from oblivious to the cuisines, music, and styles of ethnic groups in areas they move to (BTW some of the gentrifiers ARE blacks, Italian-Americans, etc - when I was in Baltimore, I knew a Polish American yuppie who enjoyed the Polish culture of the area, and of course yuppies have revived synagogues on the Lower East Side - when I lived in Baltimore I sometimes davened at the old shul on Lloyd Street - where in DC did you daven, by the way?)
Quote:
And this has what to do with people moving into a neighborhood and being completely oblivious to everything around them?
"What do you mean the neighborhood association voted down dog parks in favor of new trash cans for seniors?" "
Since blacks have dogs, the apparent implication that wanting a dog park implies obliviousness to black culture, would seem to me to be incorrect.
Once again, Im not sure what you mean by obliviousness. Blacks who moved to Jewish areas, Italian areas, Polish areas, did not assimilate to those ethnic cultures. Italians who moved to Irish areas did not assimilate to them (and often bitterly fought off Irish dominance of the local church, IIUC). Hispanics who moved to Chinatown in NYC did not adopt chinese culture, and chinese who moved to little Italy did not adopt Italian culture. What you seem to think is "right handedness" or some kind of privileged orientation, is simply the fact that people who move to a new area either do not assimilate to the local culture at all, period, or do so only if the culture is the mainstream national (or at least regional) culture, with all the socio economic advantages of assimilating to that.
Judging by the frequency and tone of your posts in the last few weeks, I'm guessing your neighborhood is being overrun by people like this: URL has a profanity.
Haha. The URL doesn't work.
It's hard explaining this issue to people who think very rigidly. That's why I used the handedness analogy. Most right-handers don't have to think very hard about how to function in the world because the world is set up from a righty's perspective. Likewise, most whites (upper class whites in particular) don't have to think very hard about how to function in society because everything is set up from their perspective. There's almost a complete non-recognition of the possibility that people see things differently from them and that race and culture play largely into that.
I think that the culture clashes in gentrification have as much to do with socio-economic class as anything else.
While its true that the history of neighborhood change is often one ethnic group succeeding another, I think gentrification works best when there's already some (but probably not a majority) middle class people in a neighborhood. Harlem in Manhattan, for instance, or Ft Greene and Prospect Heights in Brooklyn already had a black middle class that shared some of the most important social values of white newcomers. The older residents were not neccessarily crazy about Twyla Tharp or Seinfeld, and the newcomers might not love Tyler Perry or read Essence, but because they all shared a committmment to a safer, cleaner, neighborhood with better schools and stores, they could find common ground.
Even folks with a lot less money than the white gentrifiers can get over the culture shock if they see that the gentry is trying to work with them for the things everyone needs instead of just the trappings of the boho elite. Fight for a 24-hour pharmacy, getting rid of the local dealers, or a better elementary school, and they'll get back up. But move into the hood and start wondering out loud how come theres no Starbucks here or what a nuisance that local block party is, and you'll never find the common ground.
At least you know about it. Imagine having West Indian bosses at every job you've ever had and the conversation revolves around references to Milo, Gabby and Sister Nancy. It would be natural for me because I grew up around the culture, but you'd feel a bit awkard if seven people at a lunch table were raving on about things you had absolutely no familiarity with.
You could either (a) refuse to learn about any of those things or (b) jump on the Web and figure out what the hell they were talking about.
I'm an African American liberal, and I'm inclined to agree with brooklynborndad.
Fact of the matter is, I'd rather have people with relatively high incomes, which helps the cities because they're taxpayers who are contributing to the city's coffers, come in and gentrify the neighborhoods than to see them diminish to an urban prairie after the lower income folks are done with the neighborhood or have the higher income folks choose to live in the suburbs.
I don't care about their color or culture, as long as they're citizens who are heavily investd in the community.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Where did I say that all white people are alike? I simply said that most gentrifiers are white, which is true. I'm not going to spend much time responding to this post because you ALWAYS address these fabricated arguments that you wish the person you think you're responding to had made.
