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I wonder whether that lack of economic diversity leads to problems of sustainability for the very concept. Do these places ever really develop the kind of organic economic dynamism that would lead them to mimic a real town or city center? Again, my experience is virtually non-existent, but I'd love to know whether any of these places really "works" over the long term. Examples anyone?
This is really the heart of the matter. I am thinking the same as you and that exclusion of the middle class makes them only work as country clubs of sorts. I've been to Stapleton and I think it works, although I think they were supposed to get a grocery store but haven't yet. All the ones I've been to in South Carolina don't work except as country clubs. Westhaven outside my home town of Nashville doesn't work except as a country club. Atlanta's too. Orlando's too.
Anyways, TND developments in Toronto aren't cheap, but they don't command much of a premium over new homes of similar size, at similar densities and similar location within the metro area. Maybe part of the reason for this is that they're not much different than the more standard suburbia, which is already often trying to immitate traditional architecture and has a similar built form with some parks, and schools within walking distance. The main difference is that the TNDs have garages accessed from a laneway and might have more traditional style retail (as opposed to strip malls)... but even then the amount of retail within walking distance is about the same, it just looks different. Many of the TNDs here are greenfield developments on the suburban fringe with local bus service only, so the transportation situation is also the same as for typical suburbia. Another possible reason is that typical suburbia is already difficult to afford, so it's probably difficult to find people willing to pay significantly more for a few frills.
I think part of the reason why TNDs can't be expected to be that cheap is that the homes are new. In the Toronto area, more "middle aged" homes and especially apartments are cheaper than new ones. That's what the affordable housing consists of around here. For new housing to be comparably priced to "average" aged housing, it would have to be smaller or denser.
They are working on a Mixed income TOD in Oakland. Macarthur Transit Village. We'll see what happens. This areas is both up and coming and in transition. To the east, it is pretty far along on the up and coming path. To the West is not so much.
Attached houses like rowhouse neighborhoods in Boston, Chicago and Philly are quite different from a lot of what's built today IMO. When attached housing is built in the USA nowadays, a lot of times it's being built in a development-type of area, meaning it's not contiguous housing for 50 square blocks with mixed-use development (e.g. shops/stores mixed in). A lot of times I see attached housing with parking in front, which is certainly not the same thing IMO.
For example, Pantin23's picture in this thread is of Monument Square in Richmond. It's an island surrounded by green fields and SFHs, which is very different from a Victorian-era rowhouse neighborhood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pantin23
I don't know of any new neighorhoods that are like the Fan in Richmond (and other neighborhoods in Boston, Philly, Chicago):
Attached houses like rowhouse neighborhoods in Boston, Chicago and Philly are quite different from a lot of what's built today IMO. When attached housing is built in the USA nowadays, a lot of times it's being built in a development-type of area, meaning it's not contiguous housing for 50 square blocks with mixed-use development (e.g. shops/stores mixed in). A lot of times I see attached housing with parking in front, which is certainly not the same thing IMO.
For example, Pantin23's picture in this thread is of Monument Square in Richmond. It's an island surrounded by green fields and SFHs, which is very different from a Victorian-era rowhouse neighborhood.
I don't know of any new neighorhoods that are like the Fan in Richmond (and other neighborhoods in Boston, Philly, Chicago):
Ultimately that styling could work well in older cities where there are larger lots to be infilled, though to me it would require compression of space (the little setback could work but not much more to maintain pedestrain and urban cohesion or you end up with a attached car centric area instead of an area that offers both options)
For Philly potentially areas like the Navy Yard or redveloped waterfront
Ultimately that styling could work well in older cities where there are larger lots to be infilled, though to me it would require compression of space (the little setback could work but not much more to maintain pedestrain and urban cohesion or you end up with a attached car centric area instead of an area that offers both options)
For Philly potentially areas like the Navy Yard or redveloped waterfront
Fully agree with your post. I know Baltimore replaced one of its projects with mixed income rowhouses (not far from Little Italy). Handsup would know more about it.
Richmond has also built some attractive rowhouses for infill, and I think they're quite nice. Unfortunately, places like Monument Square don't increase walkability much, as they are mostly car-centric (but far better than building on the metro's frontier). Below is the general area of Monument Square:
This is really the heart of the matter. I am thinking the same as you and that exclusion of the middle class makes them only work as country clubs of sorts. I've been to Stapleton and I think it works, although I think they were supposed to get a grocery store but haven't yet. All the ones I've been to in South Carolina don't work except as country clubs. Westhaven outside my home town of Nashville doesn't work except as a country club. Atlanta's too. Orlando's too.
Stapleton has a King Soopers (Kroger's) in the Town Center, and a Walmart Superstore w/grocery in Quebec Square. Stapleton is kind of country clubby too; the rec facilities, which are extensive, are for residents only, and/or visiting teams in the case of the soccer fields. Stapleton operates much like any sububan community where a lot of people have kids. It's very kid oriented.
Fully agree with your post. I know Baltimore replaced one of its projects with mixed income rowhouses (not far from Little Italy). Handsup would know more about it.
Jonestown replaced the Flag House courts (thank goodness). They are nice houses and a good range of the middle incomes, I'd guess. To the north isn't great and the area's redevelopment is slowed substantially by the existence of an outdated elevated expressway that rather severs the CBD, the type that have been or are planned to be demolished in many other cities.
Jonestown replaced the Flag House courts (thank goodness). They are nice houses and a good range of the middle incomes, I'd guess. To the north isn't great and the area's redevelopment is slowed substantially by the existence of an outdated elevated expressway that rather severs the CBD, the type that have been or are planned to be demolished in many other cities.
I walked through it last time I was in Baltimore and thought it was done nicely. In at least one other area, suburban housing (complete with large yards) was implemented, which was surrounded by rowhouse streets/neighborhoods...at least I think it was Baltimore. I hope they STOP doing that.
I walked through it last time I was in Baltimore and thought it was done nicely. In at least one other area, suburban housing (complete with large yards) was implemented, which was surrounded by rowhouse streets/neighborhoods...at least I think it was Baltimore. I hope they STOP doing that.
I think I know where you're talking about. It's quite strange.
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