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The buses where I live are heavily subsidized and run at a big loss.I seems that light rail only really works in certain areas where people in the burbs want to get to the city. Then they need to charge more also .
Tex it all depends on population density and how much of a hassle mass transit is. When it's economical and not a pill to use, people use it more. The trains on long island were always expensive to use, and ran infrequently. When bridge tolls jacked up, ridership went up. Gas prices and parking went up, ridership went up. The price never came down though. They've been crying poor and living on pork subsidy for as long as I can remember.
Contrast that with manhattan proper, very cheap ways to travel through extensive subway and bus systems networking together... it just doesn't pay to have a car in NYC. Chicago is similar situation. I really liked the BART system in san francisco, but not sure if that was paying for itself or not.
Rural & suburban settings that have less concentrated economic centers don't make as much sense unless zoning for future growth builds that infrastructure prior to the growth when it's cheaper and land is more flexible. Even cities like LA are so sprawled out that public transport systems would cost a fortune to operate. Basically what lord was saying is true. Planning and zoning intelligently would help facilitate public transportation as more economically viable, but it can't materialize without population volume support.
Light rail is stupid because in some places its poorly executed. If it was executed correctly like putting the rail where the majority of people are then no problem. Nothing wrong with rails just a problem with the people who set it up.
Okay, let's say a light-rail system is planned, funded, laid in place where the majority of the folks who would use it are living. Now, let's say, another city close by cranks up its infrastructure of whatever, starts dragging that majority away from the rail system installed for them. They start driving, they start moving away. What have you then? A set of rails leading nowhere, only a vague notion of "the good old days." Put in a bus system that can change with the demographics, now there you may have a winner.
What are you people talking about? It's not an anti-public-transit post. It's an anti-rail-because-buses-are-superior post.
That's the alibi for kickbacks to big oil. Buses still need petroleum products to move. Rail can be electrified, fueled by coal, wind, and solar. Coal may be dirty but there are lodes in West Virginia and in the Rockies.
Coal is going no where because the coal industry has not pushed clean coal technology. Buses can be powered by electrictiy;natural gas and propane. It can be power by the same energy as lightrail can in fact.
Okay, let's say a light-rail system is planned, funded, laid in place where the majority of the folks who would use it are living. Now, let's say, another city close by cranks up its infrastructure of whatever, starts dragging that majority away from the rail system installed for them. They start driving, they start moving away. What have you then? A set of rails leading nowhere, only a vague notion of "the good old days." Put in a bus system that can change with the demographics, now there you may have a winner.
Can you name a case where that has happened?
Where a light rail system stopped being used - or more accurately - had a dramatic drop-off in ridership for those reasons?
Can you name a case where that scenario occured?
Outside of the early 1900's when the advent of the automobile first doomed a few small systems (here in Seattle for one) I don't think that scenario has occured since. I could be wrong of course, but I certainly don't know of any cases like that.
Generally what happens is ridership continues along the old routes and new ones are added to accomodate the changes in population growth patterns. While the core cities may lose population over time, most of the time the larger metro areas increase in population. This is true even of places like Detroit - where even though the core city has had a population drop, the greater SE Michigan area has grown dramatically.
I see what you are getting at though, and there's no doubt that buses provide greater flexiblity.
Well, then clearly if you are in an area with a decreasing population base installing a new light rail system is probably not a good idea - and neither is construction of new roads and bridges - unless of course forecasts are anticipating a positive change in population. Adding to your infrastructure (ANY infrastructure) probably does not make sense without any hope of growth.
Ken
Actually my first house is in a city where they have bridges closed because they cant afford to remodel them. (and I mean LOTS of them)..
The second home we have is in another area that the city is buying out houses just so they can tear up the roads because the city doesnt have the money to pay to plow the streets and keep the street lights on.
What simply makes this story odd (at least in our area) is that we dont have a few million dollars to open up closed bridges, but somehow we come up with $900,000,000 for light rail systems that ends up not being economical.
How much money does your local highway or roadway make? Does it cover capital expenses? Does it cover operating costs? How about the local post office? The police force? Fire service?
Rail transit is a public service. It is not a private business.
Well, if there are so few people using it in the first place, I think it is a valid criticism. Everyone uses the roads directly or indirectly and the same with the post office and police force and fire service. But if it costs a lot of money to build and a lot of money to maintain and very few people are using it, than it is obvious that it is just a hobbyhorse for people who like the idea of light rail and not based on any practical consideration.
Well, if there are so few people using it in the first place, I think it is a valid criticism. Everyone uses the roads directly or indirectly and the same with the post office and police force and fire service. But if it costs a lot of money to build and a lot of money to maintain and very few people are using it, than it is obvious that it is just a hobbyhorse for people who like the idea of light rail and not based on any practical consideration.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have road or highways (far from it).
What I am saying is that we need a comprehensive transportation system in this country. Our country used to be one of the leaders in urban transport. We had some of the best subways and street car systems in the world. And then we ripped them up and started building highways. Instead we should have supplemented the system we had with highways, instead throwing all our eggs into one basket.
Even during the oil crisis of the 1970's we really didn't take action. Really one of the few subway systems that was developed at that time was the DC Metro. Certainly a good system, but when you look at happened in a place like Germany (where almost every major city starting building a massive U Bahn system), we really missed the boat on that. We could have planned ahead but we were stupid and short sighted.
Now we are in a situation where the vast majority of people in the US are completely reliant on their car. Compound on that fact that people here drive more than any other country in the world. People in the US live miles and miles from work and make daily commutes that people in other countries would find shocking. And now that the price of oil is skyrocketing these very people who are entirely dependent on their automobile (addicted to it like some drug) are complaining about the price of oil.
Frankly, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for a person who moved in the exurbs, bought himself and SUV and now complains about $4 a gallon gas.
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