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Drowningintherain2, first, did I say that I supported raising animals in pretty atrocious conditions? By the way, what personal experience do you have of the living conditions of animals that are raised for meat? The ones that we've raised for our own beef and to sell to others have a birth to death life of the company of their kind, pastures, fresh water, treats, and the occasional back rub or beer, among other things, plus I live surrounded by the pastures of one of the largest cattle handlers of its kind in the country and see on a daily basis how those animals live and it doesn't bear ANY relation to the way I'm TOLD they live by people who believe everything they read.
What I said was that I could just as easily put forth the argument regarding the circle of life, with just as much validity as any vegan's argument regarding how ethically enlightened they are, to "prove" that they are ethically unenlightened.
By the way, do you think that a cow, if given its druthers, would prefer to be slaughtered in a slaughter house by a bolt or pulled down by, say, a pack of predators that will eat it while it's still dying? Which would you choose?
For the record, I work in equine rescue, finding homes for horses that have one hoof on the trailer to slaughter. But I don't consider that that requires me to ignore the realities of life.
Whether you stated that or not, those are the facts. Factory farming is what enables the masses to have access to cheap animal products. The personal experience I have with raising animals for meat, was (very briefly) working on my sister in laws hog farm 12 years ago. Working there started my journey towards veganism. I'm glad your cows while living, live a better life than many. I personally couldn't rub an animals back one day and slit his/her throat the next but hey that's just me.
Unfortunately, I can't ignore the realities of life either. I'm reminded of the myriad of ways humans abuse animals daily.
While as I stated before, it's not a phrase I would use, is there really a problem with realizing that your actions are morally superior to others? Do we really live in a world where there is no "wrong" it's all just "different". Do most of you have a problem feeling morally superior to pedophiles, homophobes, slave owners, racists etc? Or do you really all live in some universe where every moral choice is equally valid? Personally, I don't subscribe to "moral relativism" and while many pay lip service to it, I don't think many people really believe in it either.
Or you can look at it as "In for a penny, in for a pound."
If you go to Neil deGrasse Tyson's facebook page, you'll find a video of him and Anthony Bourdain sitting down and discussing vegetarianism. One of the many interesting things in that video is that they've figured out why third-world vegetarians are so much healthier than their first-world counterparts -- residual insect material in the diet. And insects are a good source of protein.
We cannot live without other creatures dying. There's no getting around that. The people who think that not eating animal protein somehow makes them morally superior are deluding themselves.
The segment you're referencing has been posted on the second page of this thread (by me).
While as I stated before, it's not a phrase I would use, is there really a problem with realizing that your actions are morally superior to others? Do we really live in a world where there is no "wrong" it's all just "different". Do most of you have a problem feeling morally superior to pedophiles, homophobes, slave owners, racists etc? Or do you really all live in some universe where every moral choice is equally valid? Personally, I don't subscribe to "moral relativism" and while many pay lip service to it, I don't think many people really believe in it either.
Eating meat allowed humanity to evolve (physically and intellectually). There is science that backs that up.
When you can make the same claim for racists, slave owners, etc., then you'll have a valid argument.
Eating meat allowed humanity to evolve (physically and intellectually). There is science that backs that up.
When you can make the same claim for racists, slave owners, etc., then you'll have a valid argument.
Our country was founded with slavery and racism and acquired a lot of wealth from it. That doesn't make it right. Slavery allowed the Romans and Greeks to delve into education and philosophy more, and we still benefit from that today. Does that justify slavery?
Just because something in the past contributed to society in some positive way doesn't make it right. It also doesn't justify doing it forever if it is no longer necessary.
Our country was founded with slavery and racism and acquired a lot of wealth from it. That doesn't make it right. Slavery allowed the Romans and Greeks to delve into education and philosophy more, and we still benefit from that today. Does that justify slavery?
Just because something in the past contributed to society in some positive way doesn't make it right. It also doesn't justify doing it forever if it is no longer necessary.
Apples and oranges. What benefits the elite and the privileged is in no way synonymous with what contributes to the evolution of humanity as a whole. Slaves didn't evolve from being enslaved.
Eating meat allowed humanity to evolve (physically and intellectually). There is science that backs that up.
When you can make the same claim for racists, slave owners, etc., then you'll have a valid argument.
Actually that hasn't been "proven". It's one theory. Another theory is that cooking food allowed humanity to evolve. Cooked food is more calorie dense therefore one didn't need to spend all day eating. Additionally, we know that the population started to expand considerably when we started cultivating grains and other plant foods.
One could also argue that slave owning allowed for the evolution of certain economies.
Regardless even if it was at one time advantageous to eat meat, it is certainly not the case now. With a population estimated to reach 10 billlion this century I would argue that it is now advantageous to move away from such energy intensive "foods" if we have any shot at survival. Raising billions of animals a year uses enormous amounts of energy, precious resources and produces massive waste. This way of living cannot be sustained.
Live simply so that others may simply live.
Last edited by Drowningintherain2; 04-12-2013 at 04:18 PM..
Actually that hasn't been "proven". It's one theory. Another theory is that cooking food allowed humanity to evolve. Cooked food is more calorie dense therefore one didn't need to spend all day eating. Additionally, we know that the population started to expand considerably when we started cultivating grains and other plant foods.
Meat is calorie dense regardless of whether or not it's cooked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drowningintherain2
One could also argue that slave owning allowed for the evolution of certain economies.
What does the evolution of economies have to do with human evolution? Haiti becoming a first-world nation wouldn't all of a sudden make everyone's brain bigger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drowningintherain2
Regardless even if it was at one time advantageous to eat meat, it is certainly not the case now. With a population estimated to reach 10 billlion this century I would argue that it is now advantageous to move away from such energy intensive "foods" if we have any shot at survival. Raising billions of animals a year uses enormous amounts of energy and produces massive waste. This way of living cannot be sustained.
Live simply so that others may simply live.
The "meat industry" is the problem, not meat eating itself.
And since you seem concerned about human survival, focus on the real issue: Humans' obsession with reproducing. If all humans went vegan tomorrow, the environment would not improve. Having children increases your carbon footprint more than anything else.
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Meat is calorie dense regardless of whether or not it's cooked. 