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Vermont is really the only state I know of and have had experience with that is so hung up on where a person was born, raised, etc. Maybe it is because there are so few people in the state? Honestly - I just don't know. Does it really make any difference?
This is a very accurate statement. In 1960 the population was over 75% native born to about 50% in 2005. I think the reason people make an issue of where a person was born comes down to a few facts. The population swing from people who were native born and out of state born occurred over a very short time-frame, less than 50 years. This is when you get the classic argument of things were much better 20 years ago compared to now. I feel that there may be more to this than what most people think. The political makeup of the state has changed from a conservative state to liberal state (I'm not implying one party is better than another). Most of the transplants come from classic liberal states/areas such as Mass, CT, NJ and NYC. This change was a rapid change in less than a few decades. Education plays a role in this as well. Nearly 50% transplants have a college degree while just over 15% of native Vermonters have college degrees. People who move to Vermont from other states move here for better lives, but they also want the conveniences/benefits/beliefs they had in other states.
There is also a fairytale that is associated with Vermont. This could be from how the Department of Tourism portrays the state? People come to the state and have this Disneyworld fantasy of how Vermont is. Everyone is nice and polite and will give you the shirt off their back. There are pockets that are like that, but I have found that everywhere I have lived. Vermont suffers many of the same problems the rest of the country suffers from. It's just on a smaller scale due to our population size. I think this comes down to drivers as well. Because someone who drove like an ass**** in Mass, does not mean they just give up that behavior when they move to VT. I have lived in VT for close to 20 years now and I will admit I drive as aggressive at times as I did when I lived in CT. The same can be said about native Vermonters. We as transplants have helped shape the lives around us. Whether it's driving, politics, or whatever thing has changed in the past few decades, as outsiders we have all helped to make that change. This is one of the downfalls to a society that is very mobile. This article was written back in 08, but it has a lot of incite into where the state has been and where it is going. http://vtrural.org/sites/default/fil...ions_Ch1_0.pdf
Vermont is really the only state I know of and have had experience with that is so hung up on where a person was born, raised, etc. Maybe it is because there are so few people in the state? Honestly - I just don't know. Does it really make any difference?
Personally, I believe people should be more concerned with someone's character vs. where they were born. According to some folks in VT I lost the birth lottery when I took my first breath, that's fine they can believe what they want.
Since I've been in VT most people have realized our actions and approach to life and other people are much more aligned with what they consider "die hard Vermonter" than many "Vermonters" hence why I personally believe people being judged by actions vs. a birth certificate.
But for the folks that judge purely based on plate color and birth cert origination, it's their loss as they may have missed out on some quality people along the way; which I'm sure they are fine with given the fact they appear bitter towards anyone but a small geneology.
It's America, people can have different views......
i was at a deli and this young couple w/kids pulled up, asked me if i knew where a certain family farm attraction was as they had gotten lost. i whipped out my state map and showed them the right direction. "Thank you", the dad says.. "You Vermonters are so nice!"
i am from California, i was on vacation, and driving a rental car with VT license plates!!!
people are basically good... no matter who or from where... we're all seen for our actions, no matter what state we reside in or fly home to at day's end.
Vermont is really the only state I know of and have had experience with that is so hung up on where a person was born, raised, etc. Maybe it is because there are so few people in the state? Honestly - I just don't know. Does it really make any difference?
You apparently haven't lived in Maine. In Vermont, you're a "Flatlander." In Maine you're "from away."
That said, having lived in both states at different points in my life (although originally coming from neither), I will say this:
- people in both places are generally fine folks. Just like everywhere, there are jerks.
- you have to deal with them (the locals) on their terms. Don't come into town and immediately say, "Well, in MA, NJ, CT or wherever, we did it this way...." Not a good way to make friends.
- meet people locally by volunteering for some of the local charities, join a community or vets service organization. You'd be surprised how quickly you win people over when you show them you're willing to get your hands dirty helping out.
I just moved from VT after 8 years there. Reasons for moving had nothing to do with "the natives" but was more a desire on my part for a change in lifestyle.
- people in both places are generally fine folks. Just like everywhere, there are jerks.
- you have to deal with them (the locals) on their terms. Don't come into town and immediately say, "Well, in MA, NJ, CT or wherever, we did it this way...." Not a good way to make friends.
- meet people locally by volunteering for some of the local charities, join a community or vets service organization. You'd be surprised how quickly you win people over when you show them you're willing to get your hands dirty helping out.
Ughdontevenbother, just your reaction to my answer shows that you are either unhappy with where you are because you want to keep complaining about it, or you just loves to argue with everyone and when someone tries to be helpful you bite their head off. Did I in my post state that you were wrong by the way? Better read it again. Ignorance truly is bliss.
Last edited by vter; 07-25-2013 at 06:34 PM..
Reason: rudeness/language
Just got back from another trip to VT, and keep on having the opposite experience: people are warm and welcoming! Sure, there may be exceptions, like with everything else in this world. But "rude" is not a word I would use in the context with native New Englanders, at all. Period!
Not sure what kind of energy the OP gives off, but you reap what you sow...
See, I hear this a lot. "Don't go immediately trying to change Vermont. Live on Vermonters' terms!"
I guess that's the rule of Vermont; what it demands of any newcomers, only newcomers don't know that.
The thing is, people leave their original homes to find new ones for many reasons. Instead of getting mad at/dismissing people as "flatlanders" for not immediately conforming/imitating native Vermonters to suit your comfort zone, I'd suggest asking why they're coming there.
Are they coming to Vermont to live like the NEK-types off the land and enjoy/safeguard the nature?
Are they coming to Vermont to live like the small-towners and lead quiet, small-town lives while minding their own business?
Are they coming to Vermont to live like the progressive Burlington/Brattleboro/Bennington crowd and do something more for Vermont than what it has right now?
And, there's also the very real thing where people might be coming to Vermont for the area or what it has to offer them, and not necessarily for the approval of the locals and their ways.
All of these are Vermont, like it or not. Most of us out-of-staters only see one of these facets of Vermont living before we come there, and we can't conform to/please everyone; especially when we hear things like we're never going to be real Vermonters, anyway (so why try)!
I guess what I'm saying is, maybe newcomers' perception of what Vermont's about doesn't jive with what many natives want it to be (and that's not our fault), while these natives' generalizations of what they want "flatlanders" to be in their way of things doesn't jive with why the out-of-staters are coming to Vermont to live there. The Vermont they want and love might be different than what some natives want them to, and the same for others. Might be detrimental to some's way of life or vision for Vermont, and it might be beneficial to others or all.
Might need to have some sort of dialog there, is all I'm saying. Maybe some compromise needs to be reached, culturally. In the meantime, those newcomers come to Vermont and pay taxes (and work, hopefully), and after a decent amount of time (and not 7+ generations after the first one gets there), they should have as much right to voice an opinion and take part in what's going on in their community/state as does a native who's family's been there for a long time.
It wouldn't be America, otherwise.
If the community's having economic trouble, and it affects the newcomer, and they have some idea or experience as to help their fellow neighbors, I think it's wrong to expect them to keep quiet or say something else that won't anger a native simply because "they came there to live in Vermont, not change it", when things as it is aren't going well by Vermonters saying or doing nothing, either. And I'm not saying that means turning Vermont into NY to suit the newcomers, either. I'm just saying that everyone there's a Vermonter now, and there's more than one type of Vermonter with more than one outlook, and it's up to all them to do things that benefit everyone's idea of what Vermont should be.
Get together and work it out. Change is coming anyway (one way or another), and every native and newcomer with ideas and limits need to be on that train.
But at the end of the day, most people are individuals, and want to move somewhere that fits them, and not where they are forced to fit into the place, if that makes sense. They want to be the best "them" they can be in the place that they feel works for them. Naturally, there's gonna be compromises with everyone else, there, and there should be. But I think this "flatlander" stuff is asking too much (too much trouble and too much of the newcomer to try to "get away from" to please the natives; which actually isn't all that worth it for many, because that kind of treatment is as insulting to newcomers being forced to change for Vermont, as it might be for natives who feel the newcomer's trying to change where they live... Just something to ponder).
As for the word, I think it's pretty limiting, narrow-minded, and prejudiced, myself. The only real natives were the ones who used to live there before all the Europeans came in and "changed Vermont instead of just living there". Which is why I assume locals continuing to insult or make fun of good-intentioned new arrivals as "flatlanders" will only fuel a mutual disdain for "woodchucks" and a continuing reality where all the natives sit and get angry about "their" Vermont disappearing, while the newcomers continue pushing for changes natives don't care for, anyway. Pretty counterproductive. I'd actually quit insulting them and get involved with Vermont's future, making sure that my hand is one of those on the steering wheel, so to speak.
Just to remind you to read your history, the area now known as Vermont was NOT popular with Native Americans. The only population of significance was an outstretch of the Missisquoi sub-group of Abenaki trapper/fishers from a major population around Montreal, which loosely settled around Grand Isle and the Swanton area, with minor nomadic transient populations like the Cowasuck (who were regularly predated by other tribes in pre-Columbian times, primarily from Maine). The Finger Lakes region of New York was far more popular with natives, and other than Grand Isle, Swanton and Newbury you would be hard pressed to find evidence in Vermont of settlement, other than arrowheads and the such .
So... "Native" Vermonters - people born in the state to parents of people born in the state ARE by all definition "native." My own lineage goes back at least seven generations, undoubtedly making it more native that most Abanaki, who moved between Vermont, Canada, New Hampshire and New York, sometimes seasonally.
The "invasion" of New Yorkers and the wealthy who built ski lodges and then decided to settle was as much of a cultural invasion as any. The fact that the natives didn't shoot these invaders, but for the most part let them settle peaceably even though it destroyed the existing culture shows that Vermont natives are perhaps far less "rude" than others.
Just to remind you to read your history, the area now known as Vermont was NOT popular with Native Americans. The only population of significance was an outstretch of the Missisquoi sub-group of Abenaki trapper/fishers from a major population around Montreal, which loosely settled around Grand Isle and the Swanton area, with minor nomadic transient populations like the Cowasuck (who were regularly predated by other tribes in pre-Columbian times, primarily from Maine). The Finger Lakes region of New York was far more popular with natives, and other than Grand Isle, Swanton and Newbury you would be hard pressed to find evidence in Vermont of settlement, other than arrowheads and the such .
So... "Native" Vermonters - people born in the state to parents of people born in the state ARE by all definition "native." My own lineage goes back at least seven generations, undoubtedly making it more native that most Abanaki, who moved between Vermont, Canada, New Hampshire and New York, sometimes seasonally.
The "invasion" of New Yorkers and the wealthy who built ski lodges and then decided to settle was as much of a cultural invasion as any. The fact that the natives didn't shoot these invaders, but for the most part let them settle peaceably even though it destroyed the existing culture shows that Vermont natives are perhaps far less "rude" than others.
Ummm, from what I've read about the history of the region and about how the Abenaki feel about it, it's all a bit different and "less flattering" than your version of it (about persecution and drastic, unwanted changes to their way of life-rings a familiar bell-and how they are in fact regarded as the Native Americans of Vermont; the settlers certainly not being so in any event, regardless of how "nice" they think they were to the true natives), but since I don't care to argue the point more than either of us can find by simply reading history and making up our own minds-with which I respectfully disagree with you on-I'll simply say that I stand behind everything I had written before and ask you not to take much offense in it, as my heart was in the right place, and I will acknowledge your version of the facts, and simply bid you a good day, sir!
PS: Though I must add that I don't see how a Vermonter can think insulting all newcomers/out-of-staters in a derogatory way and blaming them for all of Vermont's problems (and even "writing off" the Abenaki people for that matter) comes off as "far less rude", when it's really no different than people in the SE blaming "yankees" for all their problems, or calling minorities derogatory and divisive names and scapegoating them. I've always looked at Vermont and thought it was the one place that can't be like that, and I'm now disappointed that there are people are like that everywhere you go. But I hope you can show some more tolerance for your good-intentioned newer neighbors as you say your people did with your older neighbors (or non-neighbors, or whatever), and keep being an awesome Vermonter. And I'll keep reading up on the Abenaki! Thanks again!
Last edited by TonyPT83; 06-24-2015 at 05:18 PM..
Reason: for the P.S.
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Yeah...
