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Trust me, Maryland isn't the only state that has this issue. Even with that said, for many it's not about blocking jobs, businesses, and revenue. It's more about preventing what they perceive as the negative impacts of projects like the Whole Foods project or the Casino. You have to see it from other people perspectives.
I have seen it from their perspective and it's a selfish perspective. We can go back and forth and around in circles all we want. But the truth is, some people don't like change. Good or bad. And to me that is selfish. No room for compromise. Just no. Not in my back yard. Something that benefits a community larger than themselves? No. Not in my back yard. Well, someone had to compromise so that these people could have their backyard. Someone had to give up something they wanted so that these people could live in the neighborhoods they wanted to live in. And just because I disagree doesn't mean that I can't see it from their perspective. I just means I disagree.
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Sure you may not agree with how they see it, but for you to continue to say that these people are trying to block jobs, businesses and revenues, isn't completely accurate.
Oh? Has there ever been a few blocks of trees and weeds that provided places to work, eat, and sleep? And doesn't PG, as the "bedroom county", already have enough empty single family homes? Which is what the opposition wants to build there instead.
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That's like them coming out and saying that you are anti-community, anti-smart growth, and anti environmental sustainability.
Look around. Maryland is know as an unfriendly state for business. PG can be called the county that is unfriendly to business within Maryland. That's a bad place to be and it shows. If it was totally left up to those who oppose anything that they feel would disturb their little corner of happiness, RT. 1, a major thoroughfare into DC, would look worse than it already does. How can you have a major research university near an urban city and have RT. 1 look the way it does? NIMBYism. "Don't build it near me. We don't want rowdy students in our neighborhoods." Duh! Students drive the local economy! It's tragic how RT. 1 looks as a major road into DC and just feet from the entrance of the university. Hyattsville is taking advantage of the opportunities and is receiving accolades for the Arts District. They could have easily said we don't want the business and congestion. Turn the car lots into parks or single family homes. THey get it.
It's funny how I can go to Bethesda and Chevy Chase, Rockville, Alexandria and they all have corridors of business and shops with neighborhoods of single family homes, and very expensive ones mind you, behind them and these places continue to be more desirable to live than PG. Hmmmmmm. If those neighborhoods are okay with progress, businesses, and shops in their neighborhoods, what's the problem here? To go to anything of quality I have to drive to Montgomery County. That gets old real quick. I can't even find a good gym to go to and have to drive across county lines just to work out at a quality gym. Come on. Sure, NIMBYs may have a legitimate argument but it is an impractical selfish one. We need better amenities as a community. I really could care less about a few trees. We have tons of parks in Northern PG. Tons. And tons of trees. My grass doesn't grow in my front yard because of the shade from so many mature trees. I drive by nothing but trees and parks every day. I can walk to a park with trees and grass from my house in 5 minutes. Can a brother get a nice grocery store to walk to? Or a nice cafe or restaurant to walk to? Here's an opportunity to at least have a good quality non-international grocery store with possibly some nice restaurants and other amenities and there's all of a sudden a problem? I just call it like I see it. Selfish. MY opinion. I'm entitled.
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You see what I mean? It's just statements like that, that make people divisive because all people do is spend their time trying to tell you how to think without listening to see if you even have a legitimate point to make.
Nobody is telling anybody how to think. There are opposing views and no compromise. It happens with almost every new development that comes along. Should the residents just roll over and accept what the developer gives them? No. But there are some cases where a greater deal of compromise is necessary to benefit the larger community. Other neighborhoods get it. And we can sit here and continue to b*tch and moan about not having anything of quality here and continue to drive clear across county lines for the basics, or we can take advantage of opportunity when it comes and support progress and change and enjoy our neighborhoods as others enjoy them as well creating jobs and revenue.
THe Whole Foods or Cafritz project concerns a tract of land on the east side of RT. 1 just past 410 going north on RT.1 One side opposes the development because they feel it is:
1. Too big
2. Not zoned for mixed-use but for single family residential.
3. Will cause too much traffic
4. Will kill or displace a natural habitat
5. Will prevent them from entering and exiting their neighborhood with reasonable ease.
6. Not smart growth because it is not on top of a metro station. (too far from the College Park or PG Plaza Metro to be considered smart growth or TOD)
THe other side sees it as:
1. Smart Growth (urban area and not that far College Park Metro and PG PLaza)
2. Jobs
3. Amenities such as a gym, shops, restaurants, a hotel, office space.
4. Whole Foods (some residents have been waiting for a quality full-service grocer)
5. Businesses like it because it would attract more permanent residents to the College Park area which is practically dead in the summer.
6. Tax revenues
And both sides are correct in their analyses.
Questions about the projected tax revenues? I forget what it's called but is Cafritz proposing any additional property tax revenues generated by the site be only set aside for infrastructure improvements for that specific project?
It has already been proven that the state would enjoy a windfall from 6 casinos. I'm not sure in this economy counties are willing to forgo extra funds, jobs, etc. based on what? Moral grounds? If this does get shot down, Maryland will continue to be known as one of the least business friendly states on the east coast. And we deserve to continue to loose businesses and millionaires. I mean is Maryland that snobbish that we have the luxury to turn our noses up at thousands of jobs, thousands of visitors to the state, and millions in revenue? Last time I checked we're facing a deficit. No, the casino won't be a cure-all. It never will be, but it sure won't make matters worse.
Windfall? That is a stretch and politicians will make sure it doesn't go to anything not benefiting them directly which doesn't always mean it benefits us. Anyone who has lived in the state for any time is already well aware of the fact.
Are the thousands of jobs and millions in revenue to come from the casinos or from business/services that tie in/support them?
I have seen it from their perspective and it's a selfish perspective. We can go back and forth and around in circles all we want. But the truth is, some people don't like change. Good or bad. And to me that is selfish. No room for compromise. Just no. Not in my back yard. Something that benefits a community larger than themselves? No. Not in my back yard. Well, someone had to compromise so that these people could have their backyard. Someone had to give up something they wanted so that these people could live in the neighborhoods they wanted to live in. And just because I disagree doesn't mean that I can't see it from their perspective. I just means I disagree.
And your perspective isn't selfish? You sit here and tell us how great having a casino is for this county but you don't live anywhere near the proposed site, so you don't have to deal with potential negative aspects of such a project. Then when someone says they are against it, you automatically call people a NIMBY. Your thinking is so black and white. Did it ever occur to you that these people aren't necessarily against development, there are some that are just against how development is done in this county? I'm one of those people. For example, I love the Tanger Outlet project. I've actually gone to several meetings about it and have met the Peterson Companies group that is in charge of the project personally. My only issue with the project is what is the impact of traffic (which is for the most part a county issue). Is it wise to build such a large project on such a narrow road two lane road. Does that make me a NIMBY? Again, it's not about development, sometimes it's about how it is executed that is the problem.
You are the same guy that said this county should approve every project that the county has on the table because this county is desperate for development. I think that thinking is backwards. I do like some of the thinking that Rushern Baker has had, because for once someone has a plan. Focusing on the metro stations is probably one of the smartest ideas any leader has had for this county in a long time. With that said, agreeing to mixed used projects in the middle of a single family home neighborhood like the Whole Foods Project is, doesn't make a lot of sense and doesn't fit that vision. I definitely understand the concerns of the opponents of the project. I've heard several people suggest moving it. Based on what you said, they should simply approve it, but will you live near this project? Will you be stuck in traffic constantly because of this project? Will you possibly risk losing property value from such a project if your neighborhood becomes less attractive from the increase flow of traffic? No you probably aren't, but you are okay with it because it doesn't affect you in the same way that these people are. But you are accusing them of being selfish? I say anyone who wants to approve or reject development without looking at the entire perspective of both sides are equally selfish. I bet if they told you that they wanted to build a casino in your backyard, you probably would look at these projects a lot different.
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Originally Posted by adelphi_sky
Oh? Has there ever been a few blocks of trees and weeds that provided places to work, eat, and sleep? And doesn't PG, as the "bedroom county", already have enough empty single family homes? Which is what the opposition wants to build there instead.
Okay well I definitely agree with not building more homes, but I think we can all agree that there are optimally better locations than Route 1. It's just about common sense. Are these people not allowed to suggest changes? Are the people who like the project, but wants it in a different location wrong? I'm confused. We are talking about two different groups of people. I'm not talking about the NIMBYs, I'm talking about the people who want the development but wants it done differently.
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Originally Posted by adelphi_sky
Look around. Maryland is know as an unfriendly state for business. PG can be called the county that is unfriendly to business within Maryland. That's a bad place to be and it shows. If it was totally left up to those who oppose anything that they feel would disturb their little corner of happiness, RT. 1, a major thoroughfare into DC, would look worse than it already does. How can you have a major research university near an urban city and have RT. 1 look the way it does? NIMBYism. "Don't build it near me. We don't want rowdy students in our neighborhoods." Duh! Students drive the local economy! It's tragic how RT. 1 looks as a major road into DC and just feet from the entrance of the university. Hyattsville is taking advantage of the opportunities and is receiving accolades for the Arts District. They could have easily said we don't want the business and congestion. Turn the car lots into parks or single family homes. THey get it.
It's funny how I can go to Bethesda and Chevy Chase, Rockville, Alexandria and they all have corridors of business and shops with neighborhoods of single family homes, and very expensive ones mind you, behind them and these places continue to be more desirable to live than PG. Hmmmmmm. If those neighborhoods are okay with progress, businesses, and shops in their neighborhoods, what's the problem here? To go to anything of quality I have to drive to Montgomery County. That gets old real quick. I can't even find a good gym to go to and have to drive across county lines just to work out at a quality gym. Come on. Sure, NIMBYs may have a legitimate argument but it is an impractical selfish one. We need better amenities as a community. I really could care less about a few trees. We have tons of parks in Northern PG. Tons. And tons of trees. My grass doesn't grow in my front yard because of the shade from so many mature trees. I drive by nothing but trees and parks every day. I can walk to a park with trees and grass from my house in 5 minutes. Can a brother get a nice grocery store to walk to? Or a nice cafe or restaurant to walk to? Here's an opportunity to at least have a good quality non-international grocery store with possibly some nice restaurants and other amenities and there's all of a sudden a problem? I just call it like I see it. Selfish. MY opinion. I'm entitled.
We do need better amenities in our communities but building a solid community takes good planning. If we allowed developers to continue to do what they want then we will put ourselves in a horrible position. I mean I look at Waldorf (I know it's not in PG, but follow me) for example. They constantly built shopping centers down there and homes, but they never did anything to build better infrastructure. Now it has gotten to the point that they have no room for expanding 301 or adding a train station in a reasonable location. Smart development will make people want to move. The Arts District is an example of smart growth. The location was under-used, it was created in a way to limit traffic congestion, and they added nice stores rather than settle for what ever they could get. National Harbor is somewhat going along the same lines. The complaints about National Harbor though, is they do not incorporate the local community unlike the Arts District, and it is trying to expand on a road that is inadequate to handle the amount of traffic that is going to come (mostly local residents fault).
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Originally Posted by adelphi_sky
Nobody is telling anybody how to think. There are opposing views and no compromise. It happens with almost every new development that comes along. Should the residents just roll over and accept what the developer gives them? No. But there are some cases where a greater deal of compromise is necessary to benefit the larger community. Other neighborhoods get it. And we can sit here and continue to b*tch and moan about not having anything of quality here and continue to drive clear across county lines for the basics, or we can take advantage of opportunity when it comes and support progress and change and enjoy our neighborhoods as others enjoy them as well creating jobs and revenue.
So what is your compromise? Let me give you two scenarios, because every time someone has a concerned about a project, you are quick to label them as a NIMBY.
Scenario A, Casino. There are residents who are concerned that the casino is too close to residential areas and do not want it around. They are also concerned how difficult it will be to navigate in and out of their neighborhood given the amount of traffic that is expected. Do you think they have legitimate concerns? How would you address their issues in order to compromise?
Scenario B, Cafritz Development. There are residents who think the roads aren't wide enough to accommodate the amount of traffic that this development will generate. They are also concerned that it is too far away from metro stations to be a proponent of smart growth and it would still require local residents to rely on car transportation to do anything outside of this development. How would you propose easing traffic congestion in this area? Do you think these residents have a legitimate concern?
You know what makes Alexandria and Rockville, for example, great places to live? They don't build major projects in the middle of single family neighborhoods. A majority of their major projects are along major roads, with enough infrastructure to support it. They get the big picture before building. Look at the Potomac Yards Metro project in Alexandria. They aren't just building homes upon homes. They realized the potential for metro expansion and have planned for years to build a community around that metro station. Why hasn't PG done that more? Why do we have stations like Branch Avenue or Naylor Road that have tons of unused land around it but you go to Clarendon or Rosslyn and you see shops, businesses, etc. If we continue to do things the way we always have, we would fail miserably. There is no reason why PG can't build communities similar to how Arlington has. We have many things in place, but what made Arlington, Alexandria, Rockville and many others successful, is because of good community planning, not just doing what developers who have no interest in the overall community wants.
You know what makes Alexandria and Rockville, for example, great places to live? They don't build major projects in the middle of single family neighborhoods. A majority of their major projects are along major roads, with enough infrastructure to support it. They get the big picture before building. Look at the Potomac Yards Metro project in Alexandria. They aren't just building homes upon homes. They realized the potential for metro expansion and have planned for years to build a community around that metro station. Why hasn't PG done that more? Why do we have stations like Branch Avenue or Naylor Road that have tons of unused land around it but you go to Clarendon or Rosslyn and you see shops, businesses, etc. If we continue to do things the way we always have, we would fail miserably. There is no reason why PG can't build communities similar to how Arlington has. We have many things in place, but what made Arlington, Alexandria, Rockville and many others successful, is because of good community planning, not just doing what developers who have no interest in the overall community wants.
My Metro station is Branch Ave and I agree with the wasted land space. They did build apts/condos across the street but Arlington it is not. It would cost millions of dollars to attempt bringing that area close to NOVA standards. I am quite familiar with Arlington as I have family there and I use the Clarendon or Pentagon City stations. They have a whole different environment, meaning their infrastructure is well in place and has been for years. You can't make an already congested area more congested when there is no means to do so; it's already the city - my sister can drive me to L'Enfant Plaza from her house in Arlington in 10 minutes.
On the flip side, you can ruin an area by overdoing it, which could happen near that Metro station. There are no real arteries in/out - just little two lane roads.
Something like a Town Center to service those new homes would be quite welcome but traffic in/out would be best handled by Metro train.
For example, I love the Tanger Outlet project. I've actually gone to several meetings about it and have met the Peterson Companies group that is in charge of the project personally. My only issue with the project is what is the impact of traffic (which is for the most part a county issue). Is it wise to build such a large project on such a narrow road two lane road. Does that make me a NIMBY? Again, it's not about development, sometimes it's about how it is executed that is the problem.
It doesn't make you a NIMBY but the residents who shot down expanding Oxon Hill Road to a 4 lane for the full span of the to be improved area are. What kills me is that the main ones that are complaining about the potential traffic are the ones who have blocked efforts to improve infrastructure. Mainly because they want it but not if it inconveniences them. I felt that the county should have exacted imminent domain in order to get it done right the first time.
It doesn't make you a NIMBY but the residents who shot down expanding Oxon Hill Road to a 4 lane for the full span of the to be improved area are. What kills me is that the main ones that are complaining about the potential traffic are the ones who have blocked efforts to improve infrastructure. Mainly because they want it but not if it inconveniences them. I felt that the county should have exacted imminent domain in order to get it done right the first time.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Those people were not smart. They really thought that they would stop the project by blocking the road expansion. That's why I made sure I mentioned the residents to blame for that not happening. At the same time though, putting a mall and a casino off of that road isn't realistic. There should be a compromise in place. Either create a better way in and out of that area or move some of these projects to a different area.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Those people were not smart. They really thought that they would stop the project by blocking the road expansion. That's why I made sure I mentioned the residents to blame for that not happening. At the same time though, putting a mall and a casino off of that road isn't realistic. There should be a compromise in place. Either create a better way in and out of that area or move some of these projects to a different area.
Wow, your last 3 sentences were like a total sense of reasoning. After talk of eminent domain and road expansion flew over my head like crazy talk someone else agrees it is almost folly to try and shoehorn what amounts to a small city into a housing development.
Why hasn't PG done that more? Why do we have stations like Branch Avenue or Naylor Road that have tons of unused land around it but you go to Clarendon or Rosslyn and you see shops, businesses, etc. If we continue to do things the way we always have, we would fail miserably. There is no reason why PG can't build communities similar to how Arlington has. We have many things in place, but what made Arlington, Alexandria, Rockville and many others successful, is because of good community planning, not just doing what developers who have no interest in the overall community wants.[/quote]
Historically the corruption in the county has outweighed the progress. The reality of any situation is that there is going to be some corruption but the progress should greatly overshadow any regression that occurs. To date that has not been the point and the county has suffered for it.
It appears that the light has turned on and that county officials realize that they need to fall in line with TOD development to remain competitive. To that point there are plans for development around Naylor and Branch but they have to identify and lock in a large anchor company before they can get funding to build any office space. Once financing for office space is secured and the bank sees that it is a viable project, then other development (retail and shopping) could be greenlighted for that area.
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