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Port Macquarie on the east coast and probably Mandurah on the west coast would represent the southern boundaries of sub-tropical Australia. There are climates with annual means below 18 C, but probably all still above 17.5 C. Summer temperatures seem hard to define as sub-tropical vs. temperate...
Winters probably better define what is subtropical because in the Australian interior, winter daily average temps can be surprisingly low for their latitude, compared to climates close to the coast. Looking at the two cities I found, I would suggest that sub-tropical here has monthly average means no lower than 12 C.
I lived in two climates that were considered temperate by Australian standards. Both of them had winter monthly average means as low as around 11.5 C.
Interesting... If the entire southern half of Australia (places such as Sydney and Melbourne) are considered temperate to Australians, how would the locals view winters in places like Washington, DC or Vancouver?
Port Macquarie on the east coast and probably Mandurah on the west coast would represent the southern boundaries of sub-tropical Australia. There are climates with annual means below 18 C, but probably all still above 17.5 C. Summer temperatures seem hard to define as sub-tropical vs. temperate...
Winters probably better define what is subtropical because in the Australian interior, winter daily average temps can be surprisingly low for their latitude, compared to climates close to the coast. Looking at the two cities I found, I would suggest that sub-tropical here has monthly average means no lower than 12 C.
I lived in two climates that were considered temperate by Australian standards. Both of them had winter monthly average means as low as around 11.5 C.
The question wasn't how subtropical is defined, rather if Trewatha wrongly identified the top of the South Island and southern Victoria/Tasmania. His system uses 8 months warmer than a 10C mean as subtropical, but a (his?) map show areas with this requirement, not shown as such.
^^ By Australian winter standards, Brunswick Georgia near the Florida border is a temperate climate, not subtropical, with a coolest monthly mean of 11.25 C. Looking at the stats on Wikipedia, neither is Jacksonville Florida.
The question wasn't how subtropical is defined, rather if Trewatha wrongly identified the top of the South Island and southern Victoria/Tasmania. His system uses 8 months warmer than a 10C mean as subtropical, but a (his?) map show areas with this requirement, not shown as such.
Interesting... If the entire southern half of Australia (places such as Sydney and Melbourne) are considered temperate to Australians, how would the locals view winters in places like Washington, DC or Vancouver?
Australia has a large landmass in the tropics though...
I would assume the median latitude in Australia is somewhere between 29 S and 25 S.
Gold Coast could technically be in the southern half of Australia.
Winters in Washington DC? Alpine?
Vancouver's winters would be sub-Antarctic, like Macquarie Island.
Alice Springs has temperate winters by the 12 C monthly mean standard that I picked arbitrarily. That makes sense because overall Australians think their winters are cold; especially skewed by very low morning temps. Alice Springs in July averages a mean of 11.6 C. So not subtropical, despite a latitude of 23.7 S
I think his definition using winter requirements, rather than summer ones, is the correct one.
Even though here is subtropical by that standard, I consider it Oceanic, because that best describes the climate in general -moderated temperatures in all seasons and regular rainfall in all months.
Alice Springs has temperate winters by the 12 C monthly mean standard that I picked arbitrarily. That makes sense because overall Australians think their winters are cold; especially skewed by very low morning temps. Alice Springs in July averages a mean of 11.6 C. So not subtropical, despite a latitude of 23.7 S
I doubt many Australians would actually think that Alice Springs has a temperate climate. Many people seem to think that it is 40C+ every day outside of winter. Even in Dalby where I live, I think most Australians would consider the climate to be subtropical, because daytime temperatures are warm for most of the year. As for Sydney, many people consider the climate to be subtropical from what I've heard, especially if they come from a cooler place such as Melbourne. Personally, I think that Sydney is both subtropical and temperate.
There are actually many things wrong with the Trewartha map - despite showing Melbourne and Hobart in the D zone it does not show any of the Great Dividing Range in NSW in the D zone, even though there are many towns there that fit into the D classification. The line dividing subtropical and tropical climates is also too far south over inland Australia. I think it is a very roughly drawn map.
I was just checking out some climate stats for Australian and New Zealand cities and Trewartha got it wrong with regards to the subtropical zones in both countries I think. According to Trewartha, the C group or subtropical group is 8 or more months with a mean temperature of 10C or higher.
Based on this, all of the major Australian centres excluding Canberra fall into this category, even Hobart with 9 months above 10C qualifies as C climate according to Trewartha.
In New Zealand, the subtropical zone extends as far south as Christchurch on the east coast and Hokitika on the west coast which barely qualify with 8 months (one month at 10.0C average).
If you look at the Trewartha map of Australia, it looks to me that 95% of Australia falls into the A (tropical) or C (subtropical) zone. The subtropical line looks like it runs just above or near Melbourne. So Melbourne is close to the temperate/subtropical line it would seem, which is pretty close to the real world climate of the region. Perhaps Melbourne had only 7 months and one month that was just below 10 C when the data for the 1960's was used. Here is a closeup of the Trewartha map for the area:
In the case of New Zealand....the line seems to be around the Cook Straight is the rough dividing line. However, NZ is unique, in that it is hard to class. Many areas in the subtropical sector on North Island are likely the coolest summer subtropical climates in the world. The narrow geography and marine climate of New Zealand is tough for any climate system to really make sense of....but here again I still think Treawarth did a better job than Koppen, which put stations like Auckland and Chicago in the same climate group.
Last edited by wavehunter007; 06-08-2013 at 06:57 PM..
I doubt many Australians would actually think that Alice Springs has a temperate climate. Many people seem to think that it is 40C+ every day outside of winter. Even in Dalby where I live, I think most Australians would consider the climate to be subtropical, because daytime temperatures are warm for most of the year. As for Sydney, many people consider the climate to be subtropical from what I've heard, especially if they come from a cooler place such as Melbourne. Personally, I think that Sydney is both subtropical and temperate.
There are actually many things wrong with the Trewartha map - despite showing Melbourne and Hobart in the D zone it does not show any of the Great Dividing Range in NSW in the D zone, even though there are many towns there that fit into the D classification. The line dividing subtropical and tropical climates is also too far south over inland Australia. I think it is a very roughly drawn map.
What I meant was just looking at say the month of July,
is Alice Springs mild enough to have winters alone considered subtropical?
My thoughts were no, just from past observation of daily forecasts,
but today I looked at the averages to see if I could pinpoint why.
Gardening-wise, no doubt. Sydney is subtropical though it doesn't come up as sub-tropical on Australian climate maps. Plants from Equitorial Guinea have no problem growing in Sydney Botanical Gardens, along side deciduous trees from the cooler parts of North America and Europe.
I like hearing your thoughts though about the average Australian's weather assumptions. Yeah it seems a lot of people assume Alice Springs is extremely hot when it's not winter, when I know that most of the year it's only 27-37 C with low humidity; hardly extreme.
Disregarding the effects of the Great Dividing Range would be silly because it causes greater variation in climate than even latitude does. Stanthorpe QLD is a prime example of that with QLD's state record low of -11 C, which is probably impressive for any climate less than 30 degrees from the equator.
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Sydney is subtropical though it doesn't come up as sub-tropical on Australian climate maps. Plants from Equitorial Guinea have no problem growing in Sydney Botanical Gardens, along side deciduous trees from the cooler parts of North America and Europe.
