Thanks Wisconsin! (Milwaukee, Madison, Sussex: credit, public school, calculator)

[ccjarider]

Originally Posted by Empidonax

It's trendy these days for conservatives to show disdain for higher ed-- it's pretty much a badge of honor.

It's apparently still trendy for liberals to show disdain for anyone who challenges their hallowed belief that only through government intervention and planning can we achieve success.

As Trump gains successes, this trend will go the way of the leisure suit.

[timberline742]

Originally Posted by JimmyInGreatLakes

Well, we can all cherry pick studies for support of our own position. Here's mine: Study: No Link Between School Spending, Student Achievement « CBS DC

I know, I know, it doesn't specifically support the task you've challenged me on, however, my snarky statement (sorry, it was in response to another snarky statement) can be correlated to points made in this study.

My take on education is not throwing money at districts and hope they can "improve". My hope is that a better economy, especially in the broken cities, lead to better jobs which lead to better parents and better parented kids. Better parented kids are going to be more eager to learn and excel in school. I'm using no studies and no science to support this opinion but anecdotal evidence (much from my wife who has helped in the school) leads me down this path of thinking.

A better economy is achieved through a better educated workforce and innovation. Both things that Walker has worked to reduce.

And of course better educated parents, and more stable families, are going to result in better schools. There is data on that, but it starts with education, and cutting education does not lead to positive results.

There is a huge difference between where a town spends 18k per student and the median household income is 150k, and a town that spends 23k per student and the median household income is $40K. Of course that town with the income of 150k is going to have better results, the question is, will cutting that 23k per student district by 5k result in better outcomes? I've never seen any data that it will, and that is what is going on.

[Empidonax]

Originally Posted by ccjarider

It's apparently still trendy for liberals to show disdain for anyone who challenges their hallowed belief that only through government intervention and planning can we achieve success.

Public higher ed has done more than its share in this regard. It's one of America's hallmark successes, in fact.

Many other public works have yielded excellent results, too: public transportation, infrastructure, parks, etc. Just because it's public in nature doesn't make it second class.

As Trump gains successes, this trend will go the way of the leisure suit.

Not really: the type of government intervention and planning we see will just be different, as it becomes more of a handmaiden and subsidy channel to private interests.

[Empidonax]

Originally Posted by JimmyInGreatLakes

And even trendier for liberals to think that higher spending on education = quality education.

That may or may not be true, but "higher spending" was not the issue. The issue was more like reduced spending versus maintain spending levels steady.

[Empidonax]

Originally Posted by earthlyfather

Surely, you have more than platitudes and generalities to support your argument. Right? You have more than this.

Ever see the quality of most institutions improve by cutting funding or revenue to them? Private schools? Churches? Sports clubs? Gyms? Museums? Arts venues? Most businesses, even? Overall, probably not.

[earthlyfather]

Platitude and generality is where an unsupported statement, or question is stated/asked. So, you are still using an unsupported question. Your opinion is unsupported. Standard debate practice is to support what one says, or asks?

Originally Posted by timberline742

I asked a question. Has the poster that doesn't believe there is correlation between what is spent on a service, and the quality of the service, seen situations where spending cuts on education has improved that education.

That is not an argument. That is a question.

I have never seen this. I doubt they have.

[Empidonax]

Originally Posted by Empidonax

It's trendy these days for conservatives to show disdain for higher ed-- it's pretty much a badge of honor.

I see my comment hit a few nerves.... One of the themes of the recent presidential election, which has been a theme of many other elections over the decades (including recent state elections in Wisconsin), is the opposition between the "educated elite" (usually the "liberal," urban elite, but also including educated moderate and conservative establishment elites, as well) and the "fed-up exurban and rural working class." This opposition may be somewhat contrived and overplayed, but it has made the rounds recently in the media of all political stripes.

It seems that now, to be a proper conservative, you have to downplay any interest you may have in education as a worthy pursuit in and of itself; education is most worthwhile when connected to jobs. The Wisconsin governor and legislature have been good at promoting this point of view. Basically, though there are obvious exceptions, conservatives have disavowed higher ed (not so much the degree or credential, but rather the intellectual experience), even getting to the point of suggesting that they know more about science than scientists do. The uptick in "fake news" only seems to be helping this.

It would be refreshing to see more conservatives embrace education more on intellectual merits (in the vein of Buckley and others of his generation), but it seems like that carries a stigma now.

[earthlyfather]

Support your supposition with other than a question. That also is a debate tactic, avoid exposing yourself by throwing a question back.

Originally Posted by Empidonax

Ever see the quality of most institutions improve by cutting funding or revenue to them? Private schools? Churches? Sports clubs? Gyms? Museums? Arts venues? Most businesses, even? Overall, probably not.

[ccjarider]

Originally Posted by Empidonax

I see my comment hit a few nerves.... One of the themes of the recent presidential election, which has been a theme of many other elections over the decades (including recent state elections in Wisconsin), is the opposition between the "educated elite" (usually the "liberal," urban elite, but also including educated moderate and conservative establishment elites, as well) and the "fed-up exurban and rural working class." This opposition may be somewhat contrived and overplayed, but it has made the rounds recently in the media of all political stripes.

It seems that now, to be a proper conservative, you have to downplay any interest you may have in education as a worthy pursuit in and of itself; education is most worthwhile when connected to jobs. The Wisconsin governor and legislature have been good at promoting this point of view. Basically, though there are obvious exceptions, conservatives have disavowed higher ed (not so much the degree or credential, but rather the intellectual experience), even getting to the point of suggesting that they know more about science than scientists do. The uptick in "fake news" only seems to be helping this.

It would be refreshing to see more conservatives embrace education more on intellectual merits (in the vein of Buckley and others of his generation), but it seems like that carries a stigma now.

I am not, and I do not think most people are against quality education.

People are frustrated that they do not seem to be getting value for their investment.
I do think that in last several decades, public education has done a terrible job of educating. US public school kids are just plain dumber than their counterparts around the world.

These organizations spend inordinate time and money preaching propaganda. I recall my kids coming home from Hamilton High School in Sussex with blatantly leftist materials. These materials were not just put out there as examples of how some people think either. They were being taught as if they were gospel. This just really pisses off many people.

We want educators to teach our kids skills and how to think - NOT WHAT TO THINK.
Does this make sense?

[Empidonax]

Originally Posted by earthlyfather

Support your supposition with other than a question. That also is a debate tactic, avoid exposing yourself by throwing a question back.

Or use deflection, like you do, to avoid addressing the assertion presented: reduction in funding/revenue for many institutions does not usually lead to higher quality services from those institutions.

Think of all of the examples that you'd like: radio stations that have to eliminate programming due to reduced revenue; churches that have to reduce ministries due to reduced revenue; private schools that have to reduce course offerings due to reduced revenue; charter schools that have to reduce teacher pay and curricular offerings due to reduced revenue; arts organizations that have to reduce number and caliber of shows due to reduced revenue, etc. Then, apply the process to public universities (and other public services, such as Wisconsin state parks, which were not funded in the current biennial budget, with predictable results).