So, Wisconsinites, Holiday tree or Christmas tree?

[Empidonax]

Originally Posted by guidoLaMoto

You missed MC's point: the "tree" is a symbolic Christian tradition not utilized by any other religion, ethnic group or sect. Why should the govt take it upon itself to force a new "tradition" on all of us? If the govt feels a need to honor other religions with a public menorah, crescent, hammer & sickle or Buddha statue, let them. Their efforts to secularize the Christian tradition only shows off their ignorance.

I didn't miss MC's point; I just didn't agree with it.

Why should the government--technically, we, the electorate through our representatives and institutions--force a new "tradition" on all of us? Perhaps because it is We The People "forcing" it on ourselves. It is indeed a move rooted in secularization. But as much as you seem to grouse about the secularization of society, I'm pretty sure you've personally benefited from it, too. The government isn't always wonderful, but it ("we") also forced other new traditions on us, such as the end of slavery and women's suffrage. If you're unhappy about more people, rather than fewer people, enjoying a stupid tree, then write some letters or go talk to the assistant manager about it.

It is interesting that when we get to this time of year (a time of "good will toward men," spiritual reflection and renewal, generosity of spirit) some Christians and traditionalists get really possessive and defensive and stingy about a freakin' tree. Fortunately, there are others who realize that being generous and sharing the symbol doesn't mean that they're watering down their faith and their personal recognition of traditions.

[Master Jay]

My personal favorite is when church is letting out and so many cars are trying to hurry up to get out of the parking lot; and people seem to forget about that whole message of "brotherhood" and "sharing" we JUST heard within the previous hour! When church let out on Christmas, 2 cars almost hit each other, and a guy near me in the parking lot shouted out, "whoaaaaaa." I said to him, "THERE'S your Christmas spirit for you!"

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!

[PamelaIamela]

Politicians, for the most part, have turned into opportunistic bastards at an accelerating rate nowadays.
I am a (Catholic) atheist now.
And I live in south Florida, so no snow here.
But damn it, even WE have Christmas trees!
And plenty of menorahs .. and, Larry David willing, I'm getting a Festivus pole next year.
Till then..
Ho, Ho, Ho.. and Merry Christmas, y'all

[Milwaukee City]

I just find it kind of ironic or a coincidence in this day in age of social justice and culture appropriations and who can wear what costume and who can call themselves Indians or wear an Asian dress to prom and guys can call themselves She-ra that we Christians cannot call it a Christmas tree, isn't it our tree and our culture and shouldn't it be up to us to decide what we call a Holiday symbol? and if other people use it wouldn't only be nice and fair to call it what we call it after all you're stealing out symbol for your own use.



So in one aspect we are told we cannot use certain words and not wear certain head dresses or who can wear face paint and outfits on Halloween and we cannot say certain words because it would offend or upset a group of people but when it comes to a Christmas Tree we as Christians are told "you cannot call it that and when 'us' liberals use your culture symbol we will call it what we want" and you shouldn't get offended by that, isn't that the definition of cultural appropriation?



Could you imagine if we referred to a Hijab as a hat or a cap or a thingy-ma-***, we call their Crescent Moon and Star a Science Flag and we decorated it with stickers of beakers and pictures of test tubes and other non-religious symbols? pretty sure that would cause a huge uproar and become a viral incident over night. When it comes to Christianity it's free reign, feel free to mock their holidays and their traditions and demean them because who really cares and why are you guys getting so up tight about a stupid tree?



in the words of a typical liberal....How Dare you!

[Master Jay]

Milwaukee City, Master Jay has your back on this! I hope you had a Merry Christmas with your Christmas tree to be proud of, however you decorated it! Me, I have a little Christmas tree, a la Charlie Brown. But remember, that episode told a very good story in it! Happy New Year to you, too!!

[Empidonax]

Originally Posted by Milwaukee City

I just find it kind of ironic or a coincidence in this day in age of social justice and culture appropriations and who can wear what costume and who can call themselves Indians or wear an Asian dress to prom and guys can call themselves She-ra that we Christians cannot call it a Christmas tree, isn't it our tree and our culture and shouldn't it be up to us to decide what we call a Holiday symbol? and if other people use it wouldn't only be nice and fair to call it what we call it after all you're stealing out symbol for your own use.



So in one aspect we are told we cannot use certain words and not wear certain head dresses or who can wear face paint and outfits on Halloween and we cannot say certain words because it would offend or upset a group of people but when it comes to a Christmas Tree we as Christians are told "you cannot call it that and when 'us' liberals use your culture symbol we will call it what we want" and you shouldn't get offended by that, isn't that the definition of cultural appropriation?



Could you imagine if we referred to a Hijab as a hat or a cap or a thingy-ma-***, we call their Crescent Moon and Star a Science Flag and we decorated it with stickers of beakers and pictures of test tubes and other non-religious symbols? pretty sure that would cause a huge uproar and become a viral incident over night. When it comes to Christianity it's free reign, feel free to mock their holidays and their traditions and demean them because who really cares and why are you guys getting so up tight about a stupid tree?



in the words of a typical liberal....How Dare you!

The last I heard, no one has culturally appropriated the crucifix, the nativity scene, the chiro sign, the host, and quite a few other Christian symbols. Sure, the Christian fish thingy has been Darwinized and slapped on Priuses all over America, but still, you get that Christian fish thingy without feet.

Nuns still have their habits, monks still have their cowls, priests still have their vestments, the Amish and Mennonites remain fully dressed.... life is good, MC!

And anyway, who said you can't call it a Christmas tree? I'm a post-Protestant atheist, and I usually call it that, but sometimes I call it other things. Who cares? Call it what you want. Even if the government calls it a Holiday Tree, you can still call it a Christmas tree. Okey-doke?

I guess one of the points here is that the pagan evergreen tree was culturally appropriated by some Christians and dressed up; and now that people hang pictures of grandma and Spot and Yoda on it, and place big-screen TVs and Pelotons underneath it, it's no longer usually just a Christmas tree, technically, but something bigger or a little different for the holidays.

There are no rules for it in the Christian sacred texts (the Jews and Muslims do have written rules for some of the things you mention above), so the winds of time are making their changes on it. Face it, people like trees (sort of--when it's convenient).

The Christmas tree isn't a tradition for most Christians; it's more of a northern latitudes kind of thing. Stockings or shoes left out overnight are more universal, as are nativity scenes, but I think that's considered too "Latino" for some North American Christians. Anyway, enjoy your tree! Just be sure to put a star or angel on the top so we all know that it's Christian, okay?

[Empidonax]

Originally Posted by Milwaukee City

Could you imagine if we referred to a Hijab as a hat or a cap or a thingy-ma-***, we call their Crescent Moon and Star a Science Flag and we decorated it with stickers of beakers and pictures of test tubes and other non-religious symbols? pretty sure that would cause a huge uproar and become a viral incident over night.

False equivalency. Hijabs and such are clothing, and I'm not aware of big efforts to rid wimples, priest collars, and other Christian articles of clothing of their meaning and importance.

The Christian equivalent of the Crescent Moon and the Star of David is the Crucifix, and I'm not aware of people wanting to reshape its symbolic value.

The Christmas tree is a different kind of tradition altogether. If we can place test tubes under the tree, why not on the tree? I'd like to see the rulebook for this.

When it comes to Christianity it's free reign, feel free to mock their holidays and their traditions and demean them because who really cares and why are you guys getting so up tight about a stupid tree?

Yes and no. Traditions and symbols are important, but if they are not enshrined in holy writings, then they are subject to change. Even churches didn't exist in Christendom until a couple of centuries after Christ. People prayed in their hearts and in gatherings at homes. Things like Christmas trees are nice to have, but they're not really the necessary essence of Christianity, now, are they? Or is this one of those things like patriotism, where the flag itself becomes more important than the beliefs it represents?

[Milwaukee City]

Good points all around, now that's what a good debate looks like on CDF. So let's get ready for the next Holiday...EASTER or Spring Wishes or Spring Awakening or Spring Solstice?

[Master Jay]

Milwaukee City, I concur. Everyone on this thread held their positions well. And did it in a very RESPECTFUL manner. I appreciated participating, and reading and learning, on this thread!

[katharsis]

Yes, this was a very good discussion. Thanks, EVERYONE!