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I'm going to clarify something myself in case anyone missed it in my original post on the topic of internships: I don't have a problem with students doing a couple of them while in school. I do have a problem with graduates being expected to continue doing them in lieu of obtaining actual entry-level jobs. It strikes me as exploitive both of the recent graduates and of their parents who may well prefer to see their offspring become self-supporting and move out sooner rather than later.
It's not exploitative at all. An internship is, basically, an entry-level job. You're doing professional work for the company. It's like an apprenticeship. We need more of those, for both students and graduates. I'm a recent graduate and I'd love a way to gain professional experience and prove myself, rather than trying to self-learn skills or go back to school and blow more money and time trying to bolster my resume through educational credentials.
I am a gen Xer and I was surprised to see you linked us with the baby boomers as if we had the same easy street life they did, and judge your generation as they do. By the time gen X come of age in the late 80s and early 90s the easy good jobs were all in the hands of the boomer generation. Many gen Xers had to live with sweat shop factories or other junk jobs. In error we thought we were just paying our dues because we were young. Back then the boomers called us "the slacker generation" They treated us the same way you are treated today. Today many of us still live with underemployment, the easy street jobs of the babyboomer generation NEVER came available to us. We are now middle aged and living with this garbage, and obviously we have accepted it now. What have we learned??? We learned to live economically and save money. Clip coupons, avoid CC debt, follow a budget and keep expectations low for the kind of car you will drive or the house you will live in. I find a family that budgets on a lower income can live as well as some do in a poorly managed better income family. As far as how gen Xers feel about your generation in the work place, well in general we feel sorry for you. We may not understand gen Y very well, since you are a lot different than we are, but we feel for you. You likely have it a lot worse than we did (our college was MUCH cheaper), and we see what you expect and we know what is going to happen to you. Also we don't like the boomers anymore than you do, in fact we have dealt with them a lot longer than you have and know just how selfish and greedy that generation is. We have listened to their stories about the 60's, we have lived in their shadows and have taken their insults for over 40 years. Their 60's ruined Americas morals, they have dominated the job market since they were in their 20's, as leaders they are the ones who offshored many good American manufacturing jobs in the 90's and 00's, and on their watch the nations debt was run up through the ceiling. They have left your generation a gigantic mess to clean up (and I doubt its possible to fix it). Just to make it clear, we Xers should not be linked to them, and we don't like the boomers anymore than gen Y folks do.
Oh, oh, oh...where to start...where to start...?
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I am a gen Xer and I was surprised to see you linked us with the baby boomers as if we had the same easy street life they did,
Let's see...recession after recession after recession...one terrorist event after another...Vietnam...Cold War...unemployment rates off and on of above 9 percent...social upheaval (some good, some bad, but still - chaos is chaos), total seismic shift of women's roles and expectations, 1st Gulf War, lines for BLOCKS with people just trying to buy gas...I could go on and on but you get my drift. And we're not on Easy Street now, either, by the way - many of us are still working. Some of us will have to work till we're in our eighties to make up for what we lost in our retirement funds (that we contributed to for decades), real estate, etc. We're living in the same crap economy you're living in now, by the way - inflation and recession and unemployment hit us as hard as they hit anyone else.
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By the time gen X come of age in the late 80s and early 90s the easy good jobs were all in the hands of the boomer generation.
Oh, you must mean the mid level management jobs, jobs requiring experience, etc - those same jobs that will be in YOUR hands in a few years. Those are not "easy" jobs OR entry level jobs by the way.
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Many gen Xers had to live with sweat shop factories or other junk jobs.
AKA "entry level jobs" - because you ARE entry level job applicants when you are fresh out of high school or college and have little or no work experience.
By the way, when my husband graduated from college he started working at just a smidgen above minimum wage in the oil field. You don't even KNOW sweat till you've put in a 16 hour day on an oilwell location in south Texas in August - wearing flame retardant coveralls, steel toed boots and a hardhat.
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Today many of us still live with underemployment, the easy street jobs of the babyboomer generation NEVER came available to us.
When you're willing to work an 80 hour week, starting at 2 am on the yard, and finishing up about 8 pm, in mud up to your knees, rain, sleet, wind, oppressive heat or freezing cold temps - or work a schedule that requires you work all day every day for 21 straight days, let me know - but you need your CDL and your HazMat certification. The hourly pay isn't great but the overtime is fantastic. And after thirty years of this, you'll be making some mighty fine money. It's just the first twenty years or so that sort of suck.
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We are now middle aged and living with this garbage, and obviously we have accepted it now.
And my degreed husband is middle aged too - or rather, past middle age (56) and he's still putting on that hard hat and those flame retardant clothes and steel toed boots. Tomorrow he'll be working outside in 12 degree weather and snow. He's accepted it now too - the silver lining though is that FINALLY he's getting paid a good salary. That does make it a lot more palatable.
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We learned to live economically and save money. Clip coupons, avoid CC debt, follow a budget and keep expectations low for the kind of car you will drive or the house you will live in.
Hey, that's how this BBer family lives too! We agree on something!
This reminds me, I have a $15 off coupon I need to go redeem at Best Buy.
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Also we don't like the boomers anymore than you do, in fact we have dealt with them a lot longer than you have and know just how selfish and greedy that generation is. We have listened to their stories about the 60's, we have lived in their shadows and have taken their insults for over 40 years.
LOL you sound JUST LIKE WE DID when we were "putting up with" the generation that came before us! And they insulted the heck out of us, too - with our long hair, and our music and our women who wanted equal rights and our African American brothers and sisters who wanted equal rights too - the NERVE of them! What a bunch of trouble makers we were!
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Their 60's ruined Americas morals, they have dominated the job market since they were in their 20's, as leaders they are the ones who offshored many good American manufacturing jobs in the 90's and 00's, and on their watch the nations debt was run up through the ceiling.
Do you actually KNOW anyone who "offshored many good American manufacturing jobs" because I certainly don't.
Also, do you know anything about history? Do you honestly think that the politicians and powers that be in the early 1900s, and the 1800s, and the 1700s, etc etc etc were any less corrupt than those in power today? Let's see - slave trade, the Dutch Indies Company, empires, Nazis, Soviets, gulags, revolutions, beheadings, hangings...want me to go on?
No ONE GENERATION ruined this country or the world. No one generation has that much power or has ever had that much power. The vast majority of people throughout history, including since the 1940s in this country, just want to get up, go to work, provide for their family's needs and a few perks, and mind their own business - they're uninterested in political or big business drama - they just want a chance to better their lives and the lives of their kids. BBers, Gen Xers, Gen Yers, Depression era folks, Industrial Revolution era folks - people are basically the same and have the same goals.
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They have left your generation a gigantic mess to clean up (and I doubt its possible to fix it). Just to make it clear, we Xers should not be linked to them, and we don't like the boomers anymore than gen Y folks do.
hey, all I can tell you is this - if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
I don't see an issue with the BBoomer work ethic. I think it relates more to how they rasied their kids vs. the generation before them. They wanted their kids to have an easier life, jobs were going to china (blue collar jobs) and they spoiled their kids and became helicopter parents (I don't know why but I suspect it has something to do with just trying to be better parents than theres were....my parents are older than boomers and I know their parents were awful in a lot of ways -- physical and mental abuse).
I think boomers wanted to be nicer parents and cared more about raising their kids with self esteem, etc.
This is a good thing, but in many cases may have been taken too far in an effort to right the past, things need to balance out.
and yes, we know not all "boomer parents" were this way, but enough that we have a very entitled generation looking for work out of school and to shoot the to the top.
I agree with another poster that this has been aggrivated a lot by the media and tv shows which feature successful young people in New York, etc.
That's not going to happen until people stop filling the heads of college students with the overrated exploits of "college life."
If you look at other countries and their college students, comparatively speaking the earn better grades, have more experience, and tend to live at home more often or are working to support themselves. In the US, young people have inflated expectations of how college years are supposed to be. We're essentially teaching young people that for a good 4-6 years (or more!) of their lives, they are entitled to be self-centered and have as few responsibilities as possible.
I was one of the people who had to work to support myself, so I never experienced the luxury of living on campus and enjoying college night life. Then again, I didn't want to because I had to be frugal to survive, and my health was somewhat poor so getting enough sleep at being at home was more important to me. I agree with you completely-- if more college students had to work to support themselves or pay for their schooling, you'd have a lot less entitlement and more mature, responsible, and assertive people graduating from college. It wasn't easy nor was it fun and if my health hadn't been so poor I would have fared better, so experiencing some hardship did give me perspective. It's not necessary for all young people or college students to go through dire straits, but they need to learn to earn their keep.
Couldn't rep you again, Vintage, but totally agree. I'm now experiencing these over-inflated expectations of "college life" and what it's supposed to be like,when my daughter, who's a junior in high school, discusses her college plans.
need more info, but actually according to the graph you provided, college graduation has gone up substantially since 1960
As I said, enrollments increased dramatically in the 60s. These were the years the Boomers began entering college, propelled by the idea first engendered by the GI Bill of the 40s that "everyone can get a degree." Also propelled by the desire to avoid the draft.
But for the Boomers on to today, college graduation percentages have not varied much. The differences are:
The economy began collapsing in the 70s as the Boomers were getting our jobs. But a bull elephant takes time to die, so it didn't affect us much.
As I've mentioned, Boomers entered the corporate world while there was still a corporate philosophy of "train them and keep them." That philosophy has changed. Gen Y kids were taught by their Boomer parents "get good grades, get a degree, get a good job, get trained in it and advance in it."
Then they discover that the rules have changed (and to a great extent, Boomers who aren't right now experiencing the situation with their children don't even realize it yet).
I don't see an issue with the BBoomer work ethic. I think it relates more to how they rasied their kids vs. the generation before them. They wanted their kids to have an easier life, jobs were going to china (blue collar jobs) and they spoiled their kids and became helicopter parents (I don't know why but I suspect it has something to do with just trying to be better parents than theres were....my parents are older than boomers and I know their parents were awful in a lot of ways -- physical and mental abuse).
I think boomers wanted to be nicer parents and cared more about raising their kids with self esteem, etc.
This is a good thing, but in many cases may have been taken too far in an effort to right the past, things need to balance out.
I keep saying it but it's true - every generation blames the one before. The reality is that social upheaval and societal trends are decades and several generations in the making. Every generation makes some mistakes and has some crowning achievements. Take for instance "the greatest generation" - the WW2 generation. Wonderful bunch in so many ways, but...segregation, terrible women's rights issues, often abusive homes, alll sorts of family dysfunctions that were not addressed...and those are just a few things that were not so great about even that brave, stoic generation of people.
Like my grandmother used to say, "I lived in the good ol' days - believe me, they weren't all that good." Every generation can waste time pointing the finger backwards and blaming others - my gosh, what do younger people think BBers were revolting against in the 1960s and 1970s? Look at the horrible issues that were at play "thanks to our parents." The reality is, these issues weren't just a matter of "our parents' faults."
That's not going to happen until people stop filling the heads of college students with the overrated exploits of "college life."
If you look at other countries and their college students, comparatively speaking the earn better grades, have more experience, and tend to live at home more often or are working to support themselves. In the US, young people have inflated expectations of how college years are supposed to be. We're essentially teaching young people that for a good 4-6 years (or more!) of their lives, they are entitled to be self-centered and have as few responsibilities as possible.
I was one of the people who had to work to support myself, so I never experienced the luxury of living on campus and enjoying college night life. Then again, I didn't want to because I had to be frugal to survive, and my health was somewhat poor so getting enough sleep at being at home was more important to me. I agree with you completely-- if more college students had to work to support themselves or pay for their schooling, you'd have a lot less entitlement and more mature, responsible, and assertive people graduating from college. It wasn't easy nor was it fun and if my health hadn't been so poor I would have fared better, so experiencing some hardship did give me perspective. It's not necessary for all young people or college students to go through dire straits, but they need to learn to earn their keep.
I keep saying it but it's true - every generation blames the one before. The reality is that social upheaval and societal trends are decades and several generations in the making. Every generation makes some mistakes and has some crowning achievements. Take for instance "the greatest generation" - the WW2 generation. Wonderful bunch in so many ways, but...segregation, terrible women's rights issues, often abusive homes, alll sorts of family dysfunctions that were not addressed...and those are just a few things that were not so great about even that brave, stoic generation of people.
Like my grandmother used to say, "I lived in the good ol' days - believe me, they weren't all that good." Every generation can waste time pointing the finger backwards and blaming others - my gosh, what do younger people think BBers were revolting against in the 1960s and 1970s? Look at the horrible issues that were at play "thanks to our parents." The reality is, these issues weren't just a matter of "our parents' faults."
yeah I agree, that's basically what I was saying.... I think every generation is trying to right the the one before and perhaps just over extends. The 60's and 70's were obviously a response to the 40's and 50's and the older generation.
I happened to watch a bunch of classic movies this weekend from the 20's - 70's. It's pretty evident how much things have changed, I can't even imagine how my parents can deal with the world having been through what they have been through. If you came of age in the 50's -- how can you even comprehend the current culture without being outraged by it? You have to be a very flexible person I think. My parents are just old enough to identify more with the WWII generation and I think that generation had a more significant effect on Gen X, and the BBoomers rebelled more against them, but Geny is just removed from them totally for the most part.
It's not exploitative at all. An internship is, basically, an entry-level job. You're doing professional work for the company.
BTW, according to federal law, if an intern is doing "basically, an entry-level job. You're doing professional work for the company," he'd better be a paid intern. An unpaid intern is not, by law, to be doing any work that actually results in a benefit to the company--ie, no "real" work."
Yes, that's right; an unpaid intern should be doing only learning "make work." If it's real work, the law requires him to be paid.
Sounds like some corporate managers should be doing orange-suited perp walks.
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It's like an apprenticeship. We need more of those, for both students and graduates. I'm a recent graduate and I'd love a way to gain professional experience and prove myself, rather than trying to self-learn skills or go back to school and blow more money and time trying to bolster my resume through educational credentials.
It's not exploitative at all. An internship is, basically, an entry-level job. You're doing professional work for the company. It's like an apprenticeship. We need more of those, for both students and graduates. I'm a recent graduate and I'd love a way to gain professional experience and prove myself, rather than trying to self-learn skills or go back to school and blow more money and time trying to bolster my resume through educational credentials.
It is exploitation when it takes the place of an actual entry-level JOB. An internship is not the same as a job, in much the same way as going hungry is not the same as eating.
Have you ever sought or taken a new position that entailed familiarizing yourself with duties that weren't part of your old job? Were you expected to start out working for free while you got into the groove, or did your employer pay you?
I've had entry-level jobs before, and I also have learned a lot of skills on the job. But I've never worked for free, outside of stuff I did in a volunteer organization I joined in my spare time long after I was already in the workforce. Even while I was in college I was always a paid employee although as a self-supporting student I would have had no other choice. That's one reason why I never interned. - every working hour I had available had to be spent actually earning a living.
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