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Mojow, this should bother you. I know it bothers me terribly.
From the historical perspective, one only needs to look at Russia and France to see what happened in those countries.
Before everyone jumps on me, I know there were other factors involved. I have spent most of the evening reading and doing some research, and have found that the uneven distribution of wealth was one of the main reasons those two aforementioned countries experienced revolution.
Am I advocating socialism? Certainly not! As I stated in an earlier post, myself, and my employees, are doing our best to contribute to this country's GNP.
The point I am trying to make is this; those who do not pay heed to history are doomed to repeat it. I just don't wish this to happen to this wonderful political experiement we call the United States for the lack of a bit of longsightedness.
Thats it, I will vacate my soapbox for now!
I, for one, appreciate it when you get on your soapbox!
I, for one, appreciate it when you get on your soapbox!
Aaaaawwwww, shucks! I suppose I'm not too bad for a socialist, non-punctuated, over-educated, un-realistic (quelle horreur) flamethrower!! Thanks for getting what I was trying to express, and for getting my ladder pix!
Mojow, they either couldnt think of any other rational argument to present to further any intelligent discussion on the subject of a fair minimum wage, or, they moved everything to a secret thread that we werent informed of, or.........they retired the field to us!
I say we ask the moderator to close this thread, since all discussion and rebuttal seems to have been exhausted, what say you?
Last edited by kshe95girl; 01-09-2008 at 09:01 PM..
Reason: typo
A fare minimum wage should be at least $13 per hour and $10 if it includes benefits. It may seem high, but at least if affords at minimum a place affordable housing, food and basics essentials.
A fare minimum wage should be at least $13 per hour and $10 if it includes benefits. It may seem high, but at least if affords at minimum a place affordable housing, food and basics essentials.
SOLD!
Thank you, some of the folks posting here just cant seem to understand that it is not the '60's anymore, you sound as if you live in the real world of the 21st century.
I think it is hard to say what a Federally mandated "fair" minimum would be. I would like to see minimum for adults be a wage that people could actually live on. You couldn't begin to live on $10 an hour in LA. There are other areas where that is quite possible though.
I have spare time on my hands so I’m going to try to do the impossible and try to pull together all the elements of this thread into an overview, like trying to see the forest for the trees.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redwhiteblue
Come on people! I take it none of you have ever owned a business, hmmmmm lets see ....how 'bout you make it so high no business will hire you and instead of making the "new" minimum you make $0.00 per hour.
No one should tell any business what they have to pay someone. If you are good and a company wants to hire you but you won't work for $5/hr then they will have to pay you more to get you to come to work for them, wow what a concept.
I’m not sure what you mean by saying min wage would be so high no business will hire. Are you saying if min wage is set too high it would put some businesses out of business?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatday
IF and employer wants to provide any benefits, that's entirely up to them. They make their position / benefits known to the prospective employee up front - if the employee does not like the wages or benefits, they can turn down the offer of employment.
IMO, a $7.00 minimum wage would be fair - although, I have significant problems with it being government dictated.
In both the above posts, it seems like there's an agreement that there are "silent negotiations" between companies and employees.
If employees won’t work for what a employers offer, then employers can amend their offer. This way everything works out just right for every one involved, eliminating a need or opportunity to invite government involvement.
I totally believe in this system. When everything ELSE is in balance.
To comment on whether or not Government should step in, I violently spurn the idea of having government involved in any more than necessary. And if they did, it's true that consumer prices would rise and the end result would be the same pocket change left over for the worker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redwhiteblue
Besides last time I checked the minimum wage was for entry level jobs so if you want to make more gain some skills and knowledge and get a better job!
Take some responsibility for you own life and stop asking for the government to force employers to pay you what you may not be worth.
But things are out of balance. There are too many people and not enough jobs. Also being able to “gain some skills” isn’t as common as it used to be. Companies aren’t as willing to snatch someone that they like if they have to do much training, because there are just too many people out there that would require very little training. Jobs aren’t the stepping stones they used to be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter
I think it is hard to say what a Federally mandated "fair" minimum would be. I would like to see minimum for adults be a wage that people could actually live on. You couldn't begin to live on $10 an hour in LA. There are other areas where that is quite possible though.
If the pay scale is left up to the "silent negotiations", then each area would work itself out..... IF everything else is in balance.
I’m going to pick up my train of thought in this later, but for a second I’m going to completely jump track. (Hope fully in the end I can pull it together into coherency – yes I know…. Get a life right? J )
Quote:
Originally Posted by nativeDallasite
I'm not going to pay more for goods and services so kids can put themselves through cushy grad schools to get what are, for the most part, useless degrees.
If I go back to my mental ladder picture, this comment is a perfect representation of someone on the 3rd rung, who is protecting the people at the top 10th rung because she is afraid that if ground people make too much of a stink, that the people at the top, will take money from her, and divvy it up to ground people. And she figures that she’d lose thousands only so that grounds people would be increased by very little after the divvy. Another reason she’s loyal to the top is that she won’t bite the hand that feeds her. They may be miles above her in wealth but they treat her pretty well and she’s going to make sure none of the lower people try to horn in.
Reminds me of a loyal pet? Really not trying to get in a dig, it’s just that blind loyalty, devotion to the one that takes care of you, and territorial or jealous behavior are trademarks of the perfect pet.
"Since 1979 the minimum wage, in inflation-adjusted dollars, has dropped 21 per cent. In the same period, corporate executives were under no such restraint: in 1980, CEOs made 45 times as much as their workers, while last year they made 531 times what their workers made.
…………..
Put in less arithmetical terms, they earn in slightly over half a day what their workers earn in an entire year.
I don’t hear too many people commenting on this inequality. Except for elston’s post below, and for some reason, people aren’t going near his comment. Is it because we want to make sure that we don’t look like we’re JEALOUS little whiny butts, seeming to hate someone for making it all the way to the top when we didn’t? We want to make sure that we support the system that you have to work for what you want, and you will only make more money once you are qualified. The people at the top put themselves there by their bootstraps, sweat on their brow, and breaking of their backbone They moved up, they worked to get where they are, ANY ONE CAN DO THE SAME and if you can’t do it, you don’t deserve it.
Is this it, is this why no one as looking up past the 3rd rung? Well besides the contention between 3rd rungers and grounders keeping every one distracted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elston
Why does Cheney deserve to be a multi billionaire and why should he be in a position of power to give the company that gives him his pension, billion dollar contracts that aren't subjected to accountability? What exactly did he do? Why is some viet nam vet sleeping under the overpass while Cheney shops for more mansions than he can occupy? I don't believe that a minimum wage hike is unaffordable in "Our America" but I don't think we can afford Cheney or Heinz or Bush or Kennedy.
This post made me think, and now I’m going back to balance, and economics. Who makes HUGE bucks (aside from gov officials). Football players, acters/actresses, CEO’s, etc.
And I realized…. It’s US that put them at the top. Consumers can break any business almost. I saw a run down on Gates and it was a cool little article that put in perspective how really LOADED he is. (Hope he pays his employees very well.) If every one started buying Mac’s…. Gates would have to lower his price to make more sales. Is any one bothered by having to buy a new operating system every 3 years?
Still, it goes back to consumers. WE choose who to buy from. We support Actresses by paying an ungodly amount to go to the theater (or poorer people) renting the movie on DVD.
What is a monopoly? When 1 company takes over the market?
What’s Walmart?
Back to minimum wage being too high for small businesses to make it… I really am very uneducated, and I don’t know how much it costs to run a business. But I do know that it’s common that when Walmart moves to small towns, some of the small business owners end up having to close shop.
And is it true that Walmart, since they buy in SUCH bulk, that they get huge discounts that are not available to small businesses?
We promote Walmart every time we spend money there.
And the factories that take their products overseas to pay wages in pennies, come over here and sell high, and get rich. We make them rich by buying their products.
I’m not an economics whiz and don’t know all the intricacies of supply and demand, but it just seems to me, that if Walmart cuts out small business owners, then they also cut out the chance for employees to “barter” with a bigger range of employers. Walmart pays CRAP, gives crappy hours, hires mostly part time with minor benefits if any at all for PT, and they don’t have any competition.
I’m not sure I’ll be able to pull things together into a coherent summary, but my point is that everything is interconnected. Supply and demand works in a lot of ways that people don’t normally think of.
Government shouldn’t step in and raise minimum wage but they should take a look at the effects of “almost monopolies” like Walmart.
But we the people should take a look at how we “condone” factories that don’t employ us, by buying their services.
Not to step on a land mine here, but my last thought on this is that…. We really need to send some people home. If America is a really nice luxury boat (compared to other countries), then imagine what happens to boats if they are filled passed their capacity. Or another analogy, if America is a deluxe BARN that many people worked together to build, would they then pack to wall to wall with animals that it can’t support? Too many kids with no health care, too many people that ARE trying to find jobs and DO have experience, but there are no jobs. So they work at Walmart.
In regards to a poster that said minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage. Then why was it set? So that people can live decently. It was not set up to be pocket change for teenagers. When did handling money for a huge corporation become acceptable employment for teens?
Adults need to pay rent and electric. Teens use their money to buy clothes and cds. Teenagers are supposed to be out mowing lawns. J ok, I’m JOKING!! (Well, there was a day way back when… )
So my last thought is this, using an analogy nature vs nurture. I don’t think it’s one or the other, I think it’s both. I think it boils down to each individual to do what he/she can, put in 100% effort… But it also takes an environment conducive to upward motion for each individual that has the mindset to “bust a move”.
We’re out of balance and I don’t think the err is completely on the side of “nature”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedNC
What you should be advocating is a “living wage” not a “minimum wage”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedNC
Whenever the government tells the business owner how much their “minimum wage” will be it cuts into the experienced workers “living wage”.
The minimum wage is for entry-level work. You wouldn’t expect to continue to make minimum wage once you gain experience, would you?
As you stated, growing up your parents were able to provide you with things that are becoming out of reach for many hourly workers.
What has happened in the last 30 years is the global economy has eliminated many of the once “living wage” paying jobs. These jobs in factories where all you needed was the ability to learn on the job are now moved to Mexico, India or China.
Another victim of these factory closures were the local raw material suppliers that employed workers that were also paid a “living wage”.
Now some here will say “just get an education” and all your worries will be over. Here’s the problem with that theory. “Professional” jobs are beginning to dry up as fast if not faster that these factory jobs. I bet there is more that one MBA here that is having trouble finding a job right now.
It’s no longer enough to have an MBA, but it has to be the right MBA.
With the outsourcing and increase of H-1B workers at the professional level and the influx of illegals taking jobs at the lower level everyone is getting squeezed, but the ones in between are getting squeezed like never before.
Here’s what happens. The factory worker that wanted nothing more than to work in a factory now has a choice. Either go to school or compete with someone that will do the job for less than a “living wage”.
So lets say they go to school. Now that person is competing for an ever shrinking professional job that before the global economy they wouldn’t have wanted and may still not want, but it pays the bills. More competition means wages will surely go down for everyone.
America is out of balance and the minimum wage wont fix what’s broken.
We need to get back to making things and put America and Americans first.
Good post.
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! Thanks for getting what I was trying to express, and for getting my ladder pix!
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