Leaving academia. Do I have any options? (debt, average, alternative)

[gregir]

Lots of physics Ph.D's in the defense industry.

I don't have specific knowledge; my general advice would be to try and hook up with a recruiter who has contacts in industry, particularly defense (Raytheon, Northrop Grumman etc). Even if you get shortchanged on your 1st contract, it would still be a huge improvement over what you have now.

^^this times 2! I have several friends in the Northern Va. and Tidewater area of Va. that are masters or BS physics majors who are in Navy and Air Force DoD positions. They have said any Masters or PHD level degree in physics or related can find work. lots of research and practical application- think drones, undersea drones, impact analysis and image analysis. The hiring process is lengthy but worth it fi you really want to move to industry.

[DriveNotCommute]

I would like to echo the others who mentioned industry: There is plenty of room for Physics Ph.Ds, sometimes in fields you don't expect. Think of the demand as being for very high difficulty analytical ability, including correctly applying and interpreting statistical methods instead of just being for physics. Try looking through various analyst positions. Corporations and industry think tanks seem to be looking for skilled analysts all the time.

There are other R&D opportunities where you would be expected to lead projects. These could use the project management skills that probably come naturally to you by now.

If you feel like going through more school, I have heard that Ph.Ds in the sciences are well received by law schools. If you go this route, you will likely see demand as a patent lawyer. From what I hear, science/engineering people often find law school a lot easier than their various social studies (political science etc.) classmates do.

[PasDeDeux]

I'm a 41 year old scientist specializing in physics now at the tail end of their second postdoctoral appointment. While I've enjoyed my time in academia and absolutely love my job, the living conditions are incredibly difficult. I am paid 32K with no benefits or health insurance and work 60+ hours a week

Higher education is a hypocritical scam, don't ya think?

IMO, you're evidently good at math. You could very well switch to teaching math and science as an education professional and at least score some benefits and health insurance. That was a suggestion out of left field. I mean, it could be your thing? Or, maybe I'm tossing fluff? I'm guessing that all you have to do is change directions.

I have no idea what you physics people do. I'm sure, like sure, you have quite a few options.


Oh yeah, my jaw dropped with I saw how little they pay you!

[Highlands_]

Originally Posted by Schermerhorn

Highlands, I don't see why you couldn't find a job in private industry; the things you learn in physics are applicable to all kinds of other fields. I work in finance and remember my boss being pretty impressed that I had a deep understanding of how exponential growth of an investment was calculated -- no problem if you've made the same calculations for the decay of a radioactive element!

Really, a physics degree is very versatile. And it shows any employer that you didn't exactly fool around in college. The only negative might be that a PhD wouldn't knock their socks off like you might think, and that it might only be mildly more impressive than a plain bachelor's degree, with them thinking of you as a "physics guy" and not specifically as a doctorate holder.

But you could definitely earn more than 32k per year. In New York City, entry level salaries for bachelor's degree holders are higher than that.

I've heard about people with similar backgrounds working in finance, though I never understood exactly why.

There are a few possible misconceptions I have of the industry that I hope you can clear up for me, schermerhorn:

1. Isn't getting a job in the financial industry more about who you know than what you know? Also, isn't it an industry where 'corporate fit' is of utmost importance? Personally, I have no interest engaging in the classic 'office politics' that seems to permeate much of industry. I also don't think I'd really get past the interview for reasons of 'corporate fit'. I just wouldn't be able to relate to a bunch of extroverted and mathematically challenged frat boys.

2. Just how complex are the mathematics and techniques used by people from my background in these jobs? Can you train a finance or business graduate to do these jobs? I've heard that firms are beginning to mainly hire finance and business graduates and simply teaching them all the needed math and programming on the job. If that is indeed the case, then I personally don't see how I could beat out these people for a job in the industry.

3. Just how important is academic pedigree? Again, this could be wrong, but my understanding has been that if you didn't graduate from the top schools in the nation, the financial industry has no interest in you. Even though I graduated from a very good state school, I'm not exactly sure I would be taken seriously by an industry that strongly prioritizes academic pedigree.

4. How difficult is it to outsource the work? The worst thing that could possibly happen is to get the job, and then a year later find out the work has been outsourced to India. Is the quantitative work done essential to a firm's operations, or are they typically the first to go in a financial meltdown?

5. My last issue (for now) is one of competence. How does one gauge their competence in the field? I'm a pretty competent scientist, having published more and having more citations now than the PI of our group when he was my age even though he was tenured at the time. Despite that, I'm not as arrogant as many of my colleagues to think that I'm capable of doing any technical job just because of my background in physics.

[Highlands_]

Originally Posted by jambo101

I'd imagine you start perusing online job search engines for jobs that in some way are compatible with your experience and send out your cv to perspective employers.
https://www.google.ca/#safe=active&q...hysics+job+USA

Best of luck and welcome to the forum

I've tried that, and essentially all of the jobs that require a PhD in physics/engineering also require 5-10 years in the industry. I just don't feel qualified for most of these jobs given all of the incredibly specialized skills and knowledge that are typically found in the requirements section of these job postings.

Also, not trying to make any excuses here, but I've even read from credible sources that the majority of jobs are found via networks and getting an 'in' into the company rather than applying online.

Originally Posted by city living

You CAN get out. But first you have to try.

Your problem is you're listening to the PI, and usually he/she will say anything to get people to stick around and be as miserable as he/she is.

You can look around at places like Brookhaven but honestly I don't think you have to stay doing exactly what you're doing unless you want to.

I don't think my PI had any ulterior motives when he was telling me that, but rather was just telling me what he honestly believes. Of course, it's possible what he believes is patently false.

National lab jobs like those at Brookhaven and LANL are just as competitive as tenure track faculty jobs, so they aren't a realistic alternative unfortunately.

[Tuck's Dad]

Originally Posted by Highlands_

Hi there,

I'm a 41 year old scientist specializing in physics now at the tail end of their second postdoctoral appointment. While I've enjoyed my time in academia and absolutely love my job, the living conditions are incredibly difficult. I am paid 32K with no benefits or health insurance and work 60+ hours a week in the lab doing much of the research, mentoring and overlooking the work of the graduate students in our group. I also teach an undergraduate course to the physics undergraduates every semester. I now realize I will never get a permanent academic position that pays a little better that comes with benefits and health insurance, which would be the dream job. My current wage is pretty tight given I currently live in a city with a very high standard of living and that I recently had to pick up a part-time cleaning job on the weekends just to make ends meet. That brings the net total of hours worked a week to around 80 hours. Realistically, I don't see my salary increasing at all 10 years from now at 51 even if my skills, knowledge, and experience have dramatically increased. By then, inflation will likely destroy what little purchasing power I currently have.

Are there any options for someone like me in industry or government? Whenever I generally show interest in the possibility of working outside of academia, the PI is quick to inform me that industry has no use for 'people like us' and that the work I do (scientific research) is only ever appreciated in academia.

Assuming the 60 hours a week is legit, and that you work 48 weeks a year you are putting in 2880 hrs of work - standard fulltime work is 1880-1920 hours for the year. Your making $11.11 per hour! With a PhD IN HAND!!!

To your PI's comments, s/he's right, private industry has no use for esoteric experiments that are a hobby for the researcher with NO potential commercial application, but they have plenty of use for scientist that are willing to work in fields that develop useful, commercially viable applications and products.

Here's a couple of options to consider:

My one son dated a girl making just over $50,000 per year as an Adjunct Professor teaching 3-5 classes a semester (she averaged about 35 work hours per week). She has a MA in English, so you would be well qualified for any adjunt position with a PhD. You may want to look into what's available at local colleges and universities, as well as some of the online schools/teaching online classes in adjunct or lecture positions.

High school teaching may also be an option given how low your current salary is. Be picky about the school district, because pay will vary wildly, but I suspect you could start at between $40-$50,000 in CT, NY, and So CA. You may have to do some silliness with liscencing, but with a PhD you should be able to get many things waived.

Federal Government work starts at GS 14 with a PhD, so if qualified for a position in research or with NASA, etc. you would start at about $70,000 per year, but that process for hiring is a long and somewhat political exersice. It may take any where from 90 days to over a year to get hired, but the pay and benifits would allow you some financial security. Most senior military commands have a PhD position called Science and Technolodgy Advisor with a few underling positions to support the STA. That position is geared to identifying commercial products with potential military applications and researching changes/modifications required, cost analysis and military effectiveness.

My two sons are both engineers, so they work in stress analysis and software design respectively, but in the R&D of both their companies they have PhDs in Physics, Engineering, and some soft sciences (human factors engineering etc.). There are not a ton of them, but any defense contractor, oil company, or large manufacturing concern will have a pilot plant for developing and testing new products and current products/processes. I can't help you get a job, but am just letting you know, they DO exist, and pay pretty well (much better than academia, but more working weeks per year compared to a full time tenured professor).

Some one else could weigh in whether the commercial labs (like Underwriters etc.) would be an option as an employer, and would actually keep you employed in Lab work, but that would be another possible option.

Best of luck!

[Highlands_]

Originally Posted by wintersbone

Just don't be a push over with your phd like a lot of them are. My mother teaches nursing and her world works so much differently because she is in academia. She doesn't understand even simple things like how I only get a certain amount of time off and such. Im surprised you spent all this time devoted to being a scientist and now want to leave it. My mother has spent all of her life getting up to the phd level and is one level before assistant dean.

I want to leave science because it is getting me nowhere. If I continue along this path, I will never be able to retire, will never afford a home, and are just one injury or medical condition away from financial ruin. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love what I do as its the only thing that's propelled me along all these years. But, it gets really frustrating to see the secretaries in your department that earns more than twice your salary while only working 40 hours/week discuss their recent vacation trips, when I can barely afford basic life essentials working 80 hours a week.

Originally Posted by wintersbone

If you were a good programmer you could do the whole bioinformatics thing. But they are going to want someone with computer programming experience and without it you will not get a job.

Programming is essential to doing my type of research, but I mainly code in Fortran and Mathematica, which I believe are languages that are not used commonly in industry. I'm also not a very efficient programmer and see it more as a means to an end rather than an end in and of itself, so I'm pretty sure most companies would get a better programmer by hiring a computer science graduate.

[Mnseca]

I"m a little confused, because with your hours, even as an adjunct, you would make more than 32K. I make that as an adjunct, and I only teach about 15 contact hours a week. I don't know the physics field very well, though. I guess things could be different.

I also did not realize that things were so bad in that field. I thought science field still had academic markets.

However, I have been in your position and left academia for the same reasons. The thing is, I think all the talk of going into private companies in some kind of office job is kind of BS. I had no success trying to completely change fields. What I ended up doing was just kind of moving sideways into the same thing and then building up from there to somewhere a little different. I started by getting an alternative certification to K-12 and took a job in public school. It was easy to get it (after a PhD, a couple of evening classes while working is a walk in the park). I did it while subbing full time in the school district, and then I went right into a full-time position where I'd been subbing. Benefits were great and pay was excellent, contrary to popular belief. Later I moved in community college and began making my way into administrative work.

I believe physics teachers are in demand right now in K-12, so perhaps you could start there. It doesn't have to be the end - if you don't like it, there are places you can go from there once you have some more "real world" experience (the Ivory Tower just isn't the same).

[personone]

Originally Posted by Highlands_

I want to leave science because it is getting me nowhere. If I continue along this path, I will never be able to retire, will never afford a home, and are just one injury or medical condition away from financial ruin. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love what I do as its the only thing that's propelled me along all these years. But, it gets really frustrating to see the secretaries in your department that earns more than twice your salary while only working 40 hours/week discuss their recent vacation trips, when I can barely afford basic life essentials working 80 hours a week.



Programming is essential to doing my type of research, but I mainly code in Fortran and Mathematica, which I believe are languages that are not used commonly in industry. I'm also not a very efficient programmer and see it more as a means to an end rather than an end in and of itself, so I'm pretty sure most companies would get a better programmer by hiring a computer science graduate.

Highlands,

Your biggest challenge is going to be highlighting your academic experience in a way that tangibly demonstrates how you can help a company in the "real world". I'm a clinician, but I also got my MPH and met a ton of super smart people who had PhD's. I feel really bad for all that you all have to go through just to get a decent paying job in a good location, given how knowledgeable you all are. It just really doesn't make financial sense in many cases, but at least you love what you are doing. I wouldn't be taking advice from your PI, since it's not in his best interest for you to leave. From a financial and quality of life standpoint, you owe it to yourself to find a job that will financially reward you for all of the time that you have put in.

As you've noticed the tricky thing about industry (or non-academic) jobs is that they tend to want a certain amount of years of "industry experience" and your PhD likely makes you over-qualified for many positions. I would try and find a way to market your academic experience as "related-experience." The experience you have may not have been in "industry", but you can show them how it is "related" to the type of work that you would be doing at a given job (i.e. programming experience, research experience, etc.). You are right, that applying online is likely not going to allow you to highlight this well.

As you mentioned, "networking" and "who you know" is very important. If you can decide on a few specific types of industries you are interested in, try and make it to their National Conference(s) and use that as a way to network and "sell yourself". You don't want to come off too strong to people you meet there, but when the time is right (it may be a few correspondences with them after the conference), you can let them know that you are looking for positions where you can "fully utilize your skill-set" and ask them if they have any leads. You can also attend local networking events to get your name and interest out there.

The other place to look, as somebody else mentioned, is the Federal Government (USA JOBs). It is a long process because they get tons of applicants for each position posted, but for many of the science-specific positions, they do value PhDs with academic experience. So depending on the type of position you are applying for, at least all of your academic experience would count and could make you competitive for a position.

Best of luck.

[gia1990]

I agree with siobhandem. Get yourself a federal job they have pretty decent benefits. Wherever you're at they'll discourage you so you can stay and they don't give you the pay you deserve. All you can do is try and apply elsewhere that will offer you anything better.