Leaving academia. Do I have any options? (employment, job openings, credit)

[Coney]

I can understand how it would be difficult to get something at Brookhaven or Cold Spring. It's extremely competitive. Instead of the cleaning job, how about teaching physics part-time at a prep school. You won't need to be licensed and they would snap you up.

The hard part for you is having some sort of corporate experience if you want to move into industry. Even a public utility would want to see that.

I'm sure you'd do fine on the tests for being an actuary, but the problem would be getting work experience.

A cousin of mine gave up the physics academic world and is just living off his patents.

[swopoe]

I have a friend with a physics PhD and he got out. He is working at Fermi Lab. Another friend with a Physics PhD is at NASA in Maryland. So you can get out. These people both got jobs out of school. You have to try, and with the postdocs, you do have experience. You will never know unless you go for it. My husband has a PhD in geology, and I remember seeing the postdocs, and I told him there was no way we were doing that.

[Serious Conversation]

Originally Posted by Diws

Lots of physics Ph.D's in the defense industry.

I don't have specific knowledge; my general advice would be to try and hook up with a recruiter who has contacts in industry, particularly defense (Raytheon, Northrop Grumman etc). Even if you get shortchanged on your 1st contract, it would still be a huge improvement over what you have now.

This and I worked at a chemical company two years that loved hiring academic PhDs. You are being paid the wages of a low end worker. Move on.

[mostlysunny1]

Why not check out different universities & private schools?

Other government could be very good opportunity. Check out the private companies who use your kind of education...Can you sell your services as a consultant? Consultancy side business could become your main aim if you can find enough clients...

Well, the cleaning job keeps the weight off. You really are getting paid studio apartment wages...I would check out the universities and private schools. Tutoring or teaching at the private schools may be an options (though you need teaching degree for secondary schools stupidly)...

[Highlands_]

Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad

Assuming the 60 hours a week is legit, and that you work 48 weeks a year you are putting in 2880 hrs of work - standard fulltime work is 1880-1920 hours for the year. Your making $11.11 per hour! With a PhD IN HAND!!!

Yep. Please don't remind me as it just depresses me even more.

Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad

To your PI's comments, s/he's right, private industry has no use for esoteric experiments that are a hobby for the researcher with NO potential commercial application, but they have plenty of use for scientist that are willing to work in fields that develop useful, commercially viable applications and products.

My research now is in the field of nonlinear and dynamical systems. While we do attack problems in esoteric fields such as fundamental physics, we have also studied and attacked problems in a wide variety of quite practical fields such as fluid dynamics, electrodynamics, and materials science.

Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad

Here's a couple of options to consider:

My one son dated a girl making just over $50,000 per year as an Adjunct Professor teaching 3-5 classes a semester (she averaged about 35 work hours per week). She has a MA in English, so you would be well qualified for any adjunt position with a PhD. You may want to look into what's available at local colleges and universities, as well as some of the online schools/teaching online classes in adjunct or lecture positions

This sounds like its field dependent. As far as physics goes, adjuncts earn much less than I do and have absolutely no job security. I'll look into this, but from what I know I believe this is also a career dead-end.

Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad

High school teaching may also be an option given how low your current salary is. Be picky about the school district, because pay will vary wildly, but I suspect you could start at between $40-$50,000 in CT, NY, and So CA. You may have to do some silliness with liscencing, but with a PhD you should be able to get many things waived.

I'd definitely be interested in teaching, but only if I don't require anymore education or credentials. If I am currently qualified teaching undergraduate students, then I should at least be qualified teaching high school physics to high school students.

Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad

Federal Government work starts at GS 14 with a PhD, so if qualified for a position in research or with NASA, etc. you would start at about $70,000 per year, but that process for hiring is a long and somewhat political exersice. It may take any where from 90 days to over a year to get hired, but the pay and benifits would allow you some financial security. Most senior military commands have a PhD position called Science and Technolodgy Advisor with a few underling positions to support the STA. That position is geared to identifying commercial products with potential military applications and researching changes/modifications required, cost analysis and military effectiveness.

If by federal jobs you mean jobs equivalent to working at NASA, then this is not a realistic option. As far as I know, NASA jobs are even more competitive than the academic jobs, and if those other government jobs are anywhere comparable to NASA, then I definitely won't be getting any of these jobs. For one position, I imagine there are hundreds of applications from people with excellent publication records and postdoctoral appointments at the top institutions, as there for tenure-track and national lab jobs. That you mentioned the length of the hiring process is also discouraging and points to the fact that these jobs are generally very scarce and occupied only by a handful of people.

Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad

My two sons are both engineers, so they work in stress analysis and software design respectively, but in the R&D of both their companies they have PhDs in Physics, Engineering, and some soft sciences (human factors engineering etc.). There are not a ton of them, but any defense contractor, oil company, or large manufacturing concern will have a pilot plant for developing and testing new products and current products/processes. I can't help you get a job, but am just letting you know, they DO exist, and pay pretty well (much better than academia, but more working weeks per year compared to a full time tenured professor).

This would be my ideal job, I just don't know how to go about getting it. All of these industrial R&D positions require like 5-10 years of experience within a very specialized industry that most physics or even engineering PhDs simply would not have. How would one get around these often ridiculous experience requirements that are typical among the requirements section for these jobs?

Also, one thing I forgot to mention is that I also have a BS degree in mechanical engineering (got it the same time as my BS in physics). But, this was nearly 20 years ago and I have forgotten most of the knowledge and skills picked up in the degree. Doubt I could make much use of it now, unfortunately.

Originally Posted by Tuck's Dad

Some one else could weigh in whether the commercial labs (like Underwriters etc.) would be an option as an employer, and would actually keep you employed in Lab work, but that would be another possible option.

Best of luck!

Thank you, Tuck's Dad. You've given me quite a few avenues to independently pursue and some interesting insights into others that I was not aware of.

[jane_sm1th73]

Originally Posted by Highlands_

Hi there,

...

Are there any options for someone like me in industry or government? Whenever I generally show interest in the possibility of working outside of academia, the PI is quick to inform me that industry has no use for 'people like us' and that the work I do (scientific research) is only ever appreciated in academia.

You have been snowed. You need to prepare yourself mentally, build a new framework of reference, and couch your capabilities in ways that people outside of the student world can translate.

Read Nick Corcodilos on how to transform your capabilities into problem solving in a non-academic context. The FedGov is your best bet. Go on USAJOBS to see the lay of the land. The Department of Energy - among others - is filled with physicist jobs. However, you must be analytical about how you couch your capabilities. There is a workshop that teaches you how to translate non-governmental experience into governmental qualifications. It is run by Corliss Jackson, and is called something like Cracking the Code. This workshop is life support for you - but you must know the lay of the land first. Save up your cash and go to it, whatever it takes. Read Stealth Rabbit on how to travel on the cheap, and how to stay on location on the cheap using ?Hospitality homes? or something like that.

If C-D removes the reference, DM me.

It does take a looong time to get through the interview process for a Fed job. Be prepared and save money. You will need start-up cash.

Where are you located? Some areas of the country are better than others. You can't be passive about this quest. You have got to go after it like you mean it. Or, is your Physics Ph.D. intended for pin money?

When were you going to start looking for something better? When you're sixty?

Best wishes.

[RVD90277]

why don't you try applying to various positions at private companies? there are many physical phds in tech but most of them are engineers or work on hardware, etc. so they may not work specifically in the field that they studied.

[germaine2626]

Originally Posted by Highlands_

Hi there,

I'm a 41 year old scientist specializing in physics now at the tail end of their second postdoctoral appointment. While I've enjoyed my time in academia and absolutely love my job, the living conditions are incredibly difficult. I am paid 32K with no benefits or health insurance and work 60+ hours a week in the lab doing much of the research, mentoring and overlooking the work of the graduate students in our group. I also teach an undergraduate course to the physics undergraduates every semester. I now realize I will never get a permanent academic position that pays a little better that comes with benefits and health insurance, which would be the dream job. My current wage is pretty tight given I currently live in a city with a very high standard of living and that I recently had to pick up a part-time cleaning job on the weekends just to make ends meet. That brings the net total of hours worked a week to around 80 hours. Realistically, I don't see my salary increasing at all 10 years from now at 51 even if my skills, knowledge, and experience have dramatically increased. By then, inflation will likely destroy what little purchasing power I currently have.

Are there any options for someone like me in industry or government? Whenever I generally show interest in the possibility of working outside of academia, the PI is quick to inform me that industry has no use for 'people like us' and that the work I do (scientific research) is only ever appreciated in academia.

This may be a dumb question, but I thought that rates for post-docs were standard across the United States. I had thought that $48,000 or $50,000 with health insurance and other benefits was the standard rate for someone in their second post doc position. Is your salary so low because you have published less research than other post docs? Or did you have difficulty getting a placement? Or were you somehow "taken advantage of" when they hired you?

As others have said there are other work situations outside of academia. It probably is time to move on.

Many people say that it doesn't matter what is your PhD subject, it is the fact that you are smart enough and dedicated enough to get a PhD. That means that you should be smart enough and dedicated enough to get a new, much better job.

Good luck to you.

[siobhandem]

Originally Posted by Highlands_

If by federal jobs you mean jobs equivalent to working at NASA, then this is not a realistic option. As far as I know, NASA jobs are even more competitive than the academic jobs, and if those other government jobs are anywhere comparable to NASA, then I definitely won't be getting any of these jobs. For one position, I imagine there are hundreds of applications from people with excellent publication records and postdoctoral appointments at the top institutions, as there for tenure-track and national lab jobs. That you mentioned the length of the hiring process is also discouraging and points to the fact that these jobs are generally very scarce and occupied only by a handful of people.

Most departments in the federal government that have nothing to do with NASA. For example, Bureau of Safety and Environment Enforcement oversees offshore drilling. They hire physicist, too, for looking at seismic testing. If you don't know anything about seismic, they will train you. PhD start at GS-11, about $60,000 or so.

[Highlands_]

Originally Posted by Mnseca

I"m a little confused, because with your hours, even as an adjunct, you would make more than 32K. I make that as an adjunct, and I only teach about 15 contact hours a week. I don't know the physics field very well, though. I guess things could be different.

This is not the case at all. Adjuncts in my department are paid much less than I, but they also work proportionally less. As far as I'm aware, your situation sounds like the extreme exception rather than the norm for adjuncts. They really do get the shaft as far as academia is concerned.

Originally Posted by Mnseca

I also did not realize that things were so bad in that field. I thought science field still had academic markets.

A tenure faculty position is a really sweet gig. Most who make it will continue working well into their 80s and dying as professors rather than retiring. A faculty member also graduates at least 10 more PhDs during the course of their career, and only one of those PhDs will be replacing them. So, it's not like the circumstances I find myself are unexpected.

Originally Posted by Mnseca

However, I have been in your position and left academia for the same reasons. The thing is, I think all the talk of going into private companies in some kind of office job is kind of BS. I had no success trying to completely change fields. What I ended up doing was just kind of moving sideways into the same thing and then building up from there to somewhere a little different. I started by getting an alternative certification to K-12 and took a job in public school. It was easy to get it (after a PhD, a couple of evening classes while working is a walk in the park). I did it while subbing full time in the school district, and then I went right into a full-time position where I'd been subbing. Benefits were great and pay was excellent, contrary to popular belief. Later I moved in community college and began making my way into administrative work.

This is what I suspect will be my experience, as well. Many on here are essentially speaking as if employers are beating down the door of physics PhDs to hire them. When I type physics PhD into the search, only a small handful of jobs come up, and all of them would also be equally happy to take an engineering PhD and there's simply no way I could compete with an engineering PhD as they're knowledge is much more relevant and useful and are hence much more likely to meet the experience requirements than a physics PhD. Realistically, I think my only option is teaching in the public school system, but unless I can somehow waive the requirements for another degree and license, I'm simply not interested in accumulating debt and going back to taking classes again for a job that I'm more than qualified to do already.

Originally Posted by Mnseca

I believe physics teachers are in demand right now in K-12, so perhaps you could start there. It doesn't have to be the end - if you don't like it, there are places you can go from there once you have some more "real world" experience (the Ivory Tower just isn't the same).

Sounds plausible. I'll be looking into it, though I don't expect my options to get any better if I were to transition to the education industry. From the looks of it, there's very little need (if any) for physics PhDs in industry and it would seem my PI is right when he said physicists belong in academia.