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So if you're not going to to a T14 school, you'd better have some way to pay for your education other than taking out loans. However, if you are going to a T14 school, a 25th percentile wage of 180k is not unusual, as I and others have pointed out and the naysayers have continued to deny despite actual evidence. Moreover, if you look at a few years worth of reports, a trend becomes apparent - starting salaries have been on a very nice upward trajectory for several years. If there were no demand, the 25th percentile wage wouldn't be the same as the median and 75th percentile wage, and the wage wouldn't be climbing significantly every year.
That's true in every field as we've climbed out of the recession years. There is still overwhelming evidence that law school is not a good investment for most people. As most people don't wind up in the top 20 schools. It's risky. Losing three years of income in addition to 100K in debt is a huge financial risk for iffy job prospects.
There are lawyers with actual JD's, who tire of the $20/hour "doc review" jobs with no benefits and try to apply for paralegal jobs. They don't get the job.
Yes, this is an article from 4 years ago, but the job market for lawyers has significantly worsened since.
^This.
I applied for hundreds of paralegal jobs in 2009-2010. Lawyers generally don't want to hire JD's to do paralegal work for a plethora of reasons. I was lucky to get a clerking job in law school, but it was $20/hr and wayyyy out in the country so had to do temp doc review instead for a princely wages of $24/hr. And this was in 2010, after nearly a year of unemployment, working as a volunteer at legal aid in order to at least try and build actual, real world experience (something you don't get in law school).
Let me tell you, there are few things more depressing in this life than spending 3 years in law school + studying and passing the bar exam with all your enthusiasm and idealism to get locked in a doc review dungeon 10hrs a day (sometimes more b/c OT) wondering what happened. Or better yet, getting laid off of a doc review project wondering what happened.
Good news, I had a lot of time to think and strategize, eventually escaped doc review - my first entry-level programming job full time for $50k + benefits felt like I won the lottery. By that time I had lost 5 years to the legal industry, and had a lot of catching up to do.
Law school is a gamble so plan carefully and make sure the deck is stacked in your favor.
I applied for hundreds of paralegal jobs in 2009-2010. Lawyers generally don't want to hire JD's to do paralegal work for a plethora of reasons. I.
Although I'm sure they have their reasons, it seems they'd be better off hiring someone with a law degree to do paralegal work. The people I've known who worked as paralegals only had high school diplomas and/or some college (but no degree) and no legal experience. Are they really cut out to do legal research? I'm just curious. If I were a lawyer, I'd rather hire someone with at least a college degree.
Although I'm sure they have their reasons, it seems they'd be better off hiring someone with a law degree to do paralegal work. The people I've known who worked as paralegals only had high school diplomas and/or some college (but no degree) and no legal experience. Are they really cut out to do legal research? I'm just curious. If I were a lawyer, I'd rather hire someone with at least a college degree.
You'd think so, but actually there are a number of reasons, including:
1) The lawyer doesn't want the paralegal trying to make legal decisions; which (presumably) a lawyer might be inclined to do, the paralegal is just supposed to carry out research.
2) The lawyer doesn't want another lawyer questioning their decision-making/second-guessing them,
3) There's a (often correctly) perceived view that the lawyer-turned-paralegal will immediately leave the job once a 'real' lawyer role opens up; thus sunk costs in training, etc.,
Of all the reasons I saw, the third was probably the strongest. A lawyer knows that another lawyer isn't taking a paralegal role unless times are tough, and they'll probably bail as soon as other options are available. Hiring a 'career paralegal' so to speak, is probably safer long-term.
Although I'm sure they have their reasons, it seems they'd be better off hiring someone with a law degree to do paralegal work. The people I've known who worked as paralegals only had high school diplomas and/or some college (but no degree) and no legal experience. Are they really cut out to do legal research? I'm just curious. If I were a lawyer, I'd rather hire someone with at least a college degree.
There are a lot of positions that are quasi-legal that nonattorneys do, particularly in government. At my old job, we had a lot of non-attorneys in regulatory positions and they knew the laws and knew them well. However, the positions weren’t paralegal positions. They were compliance-oriented positions and there was training related to those positions. We actually had a lot of attorneys who moved from attorney positions into those jobs because there was no growth in the legal department and more growth in compliance or operations for people who knew the laws. However, some non-attorneys did a great job too.
In my current employer, I do a job that both attorneys and non-attorneys can do, but they are phasing out the paralegal version because attorneys tend to have trouble making it past the probationary period. In my office now, about 1/4 are paralegals who have been there a long time and are quite good at what they do. However, they tried to hire a few more that had to be demoted out of that position because they weren’t considered efficient enough at it. The people hired to do that job typically only came on as internal candidates with experience with the program. I know one doesn’t really do legal research, but I think others might.
3) There's a (often correctly) perceived view that the lawyer-turned-paralegal will immediately leave the job once a 'real' lawyer role opens up; thus sunk costs in training, etc.,
Of all the reasons I saw, the third was probably the strongest. A lawyer knows that another lawyer isn't taking a paralegal role unless times are tough, and they'll probably bail as soon as other options are available. Hiring a 'career paralegal' so to speak, is probably safer long-term.
Unfortunately, that perception does not fit reality. If someone is forced to take a lower paying paralegal job, it is because the only other job they can get is "contract attorney" doing doc review for $20/hour with zero benefits and zero job security.
Those are not likely to find employment as a "real attorney" any time soon.
Seriously, when was the last time something like this happened?
An attorney is working at doc review as a contractor. His job is to see if a document is relevant to the case. Spends the entire day pressing Y or N. On a random day, a vice president of the BigLaw firm comes down and says "Hey you! Yes you, the one who pressed Y on the Penske document! I like your work, come work upstairs as a BigLaw associate for $160K a year!"
Unfortunately, that perception does not fit reality. If someone is forced to take a lower paying paralegal job, it is because the only other job they can get is "contract attorney" doing doc review for $20/hour with zero benefits and zero job security.
Those are not likely to find employment as a "real attorney" any time soon.
Seriously, when was the last time something like this happened?
An attorney is working at doc review as a contractor. His job is to see if a document is relevant to the case. Spends the entire day pressing Y or N. On a random day, a vice president of the BigLaw firm comes down and says "Hey you! Yes you, the one who pressed Y on the Penske document! I like your work, come work upstairs as a BigLaw associate for $160K a year!"
Not going to happen.
I know people who did it. It is not that unusual. In the federal government, a lot of people come in as paralegals just to get their foot in the door. I also had a friend who was a paralegal and moved into a staff attorney position at another firm. It was essentially the same job, just a different title in compliance. Now the person is not likely to move to biglaw associate, but they may move to staff attorney or a job at a small firm that has benefits. I know several people who have done that.
3) There's a (often correctly) perceived view that the lawyer-turned-paralegal will immediately leave the job once a 'real' lawyer role opens up; thus sunk costs in training, etc., .
It would seem that a lawyer-turned-paralegal wouldn't need much training, though. So there wouldn't be as much sunk costs.
In my 20s I was friends with a group of women, some of whom got jobs as paralegals, and they had virtually no legal experience and maybe one semester of college. Personally, knowing what I knew about them, I wouldn't have hired them to work at most any job that required even a modicum of responsibility. If I were a lawyer, I would want someone with at least some training certificate from a paralegal program, as I'd be worried about un-experienced people screwing up my cases. But it's their career, their call so whatever.
In the federal government, a lot of people come in as paralegals just to get their foot in the door.
Federal government jobs tend to go to Veterans first. If one is not a Vet, game over here.
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I also had a friend who was a paralegal and moved into a staff attorney position at another firm. It was essentially the same job, just a different title in compliance. Now the person is not likely to move to biglaw associate, but they may move to staff attorney or a job at a small firm that has benefits. I know several people who have done that.
And those staff attorney positions don't pay much. No six figures stuff here. Only BigLaw goes down that route.
Personally, I'd rather have the cha-ching than the job title. IANAL, but if I was, I'd rather work as a paralegal and make more money than a contract attorney doing doc review.
I applied for hundreds of paralegal jobs in 2009-2010. Lawyers generally don't want to hire JD's to do paralegal work for a plethora of reasons. I was lucky to get a clerking job in law school, but it was $20/hr and wayyyy out in the country so had to do temp doc review instead for a princely wages of $24/hr. And this was in 2010, after nearly a year of unemployment, working as a volunteer at legal aid in order to at least try and build actual, real world experience (something you don't get in law school).
Let me tell you, there are few things more depressing in this life than spending 3 years in law school + studying and passing the bar exam with all your enthusiasm and idealism to get locked in a doc review dungeon 10hrs a day (sometimes more b/c OT) wondering what happened. Or better yet, getting laid off of a doc review project wondering what happened.
Good news, I had a lot of time to think and strategize, eventually escaped doc review - my first entry-level programming job full time for $50k + benefits felt like I won the lottery. By that time I had lost 5 years to the legal industry, and had a lot of catching up to do.
Law school is a gamble so plan carefully and make sure the deck is stacked in your favor.
The sad thing is that this may have even been a pay cut. I've seen people leave doc review positions that paid $29/hour, where they could work as many as 60 hours a week if they wished leave for jobs that paid $35K because that was a "real job."
You were lucky to escape doc review. Often you have about a year or so before you become almost unemployable in other legal jobs and you become stuck in doc review, which typically give only very limited experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PriscillaVanilla
Although I'm sure they have their reasons, it seems they'd be better off hiring someone with a law degree to do paralegal work. The people I've known who worked as paralegals only had high school diplomas and/or some college (but no degree) and no legal experience. Are they really cut out to do legal research? I'm just curious. If I were a lawyer, I'd rather hire someone with at least a college degree.
It really depends. Some paralegals are extremely smart and capable. The sad fact is, a fresh law grad knows almost nothing applicable to real legal work. It takes 6 months before they really understand how to do day to day legal work (especially if they're involved in litigation). There are many paralegals that really do legal work and know more than most lawyers. The only things they can't do are sign pleadings or appear in court.
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