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Well it seems we don't really know what Mr Jobs (RIP) thought about the fundamentals of government - no evidence has been put forward on this thread to suggest he thought governments should get out of schooling, or road-building, for example.
As I say, maybe we don't need governments to build and run roads and railways - but the fact is, the modern infrastructure on which business currently relies - America's interstates, or the European high-speed rail network, for example - were built by governments.
Saying that we don't need governments to build roads and rails because at one point it was done privately is like saying we don't need corporations to make computers, because at one point people used to build them in their garden shed.
And by the way, when the robber barons were building private railroads, that system was horrible. They used their power to shape the laws to their benefit and regularly engaged in a illegal activities that harmed society as a whole, but no one put a stop to it due to their enormous wealth and power.
Well it seems we don't really know what Mr Jobs (RIP) thought about the fundamentals of government - no evidence has been put forward on this thread to suggest he thought governments should get out of schooling, or road-building, for example.
As I say, maybe we don't need governments to build and run roads and railways - but the fact is, the modern infrastructure on which business currently relies - America's interstates, or the European high-speed rail network, for example - were built by governments.
Saying that we don't need governments to build roads and rails because at one point it was done privately is like saying we don't need corporations to make computers, because at one point people used to build them in their garden shed.
i didn't say Mr Jobs wanted government out of schooling, etc etc.. look through the previous posts.. some other guy posted that Jobs was Pro-government.. i posted something that showed he WASN'T pro-government.. thats all i'm saying.. there's a difference between pro-government, not pro-government, and what i believe, which is against excess government.
Roads and railways built by the government HAVE helped modern businesses, however, whats to say private built roads (which are intended to do the same thing as government funded roads) wouldn't have helped businesses too ? they are just roads and railways. they get people from one place to another.. thats it.. government funded/privately funded roads do the exact same thing.
saying we need government to build roads and rails JUST because they've been building the current infrastructure is like a little kid refusing to eat his food without it being spoon fed to him by his mum, because she's been doing it since he/she was born.
As stated before, you might consider Singapore as meeting some of your criteria when it comes to economics and finance as having less government intervention. On personal behaviors though the government can be a bit of a schoolmarm.
Hong Kong used to be a real free wheeling city-state when it came to economics. Of course, that ended when China took over.
i didn't say Mr Jobs wanted government out of schooling, etc etc.. look through the previous posts.. some other guy posted that Jobs was Pro-government.. i posted something that showed he WASN'T pro-government.. thats all i'm saying.. there's a difference between pro-government, not pro-government, and what i believe, which is against excess government.
Roads and railways built by the government HAVE helped modern businesses, however, whats to say private built roads (which are intended to do the same thing as government funded roads) wouldn't have helped businesses too ? they are just roads and railways. they get people from one place to another.. thats it.. government funded/privately funded roads do the exact same thing.
saying we need government to build roads and rails JUST because they've been building the current infrastructure is like a little kid refusing to eat his food without it being spoon fed to him by his mum, because she's been doing it since he/she was born.
Great, seems like I won you over. What you said at the point where I first came in was that 'government did nothing (but tax) steve jobs when he created the iphone' - which you happily now seem to accept as untrue, since you acknowledge that the government actually built and ran the roads and schools upon which the society from which Steve Jobs, the iPhone, and the markets that bought it rely. I never said there mightn't be many better ways of doing things - but I'm happy you no longer deny that as history has gone so far, governments have done various other things for businesses like Apple, asside from just tax them, as you originally suggested.
None of which is to say that businesses haven't also done many things for governments, or that businesses don't have to have great people and ideas in order to succeed!
As for people being 'pro-government' - you haven't given any evidence for what Steve Jobs thought about government in any substantial sense - so you cannot claim he wasn't 'pro-government' and more than anyone else can claim that he was
Great, seems like I won you over. What you said at the point where I first came in was that 'government did nothing (but tax) steve jobs when he created the iphone' - which you happily now seem to accept as untrue, since you acknowledge that the government actually built and ran the roads and schools upon which the society from which Steve Jobs, the iPhone, and the markets that bought it rely. I never said there mightn't be many better ways of doing things - but I'm happy you no longer deny that as history has gone so far, governments have done various other things for businesses like Apple, asside from just tax them, as you originally suggested.
None of which is to say that businesses haven't also done many things for governments, or that businesses don't have to have great people and ideas in order to succeed!
As for people being 'pro-government' - you haven't given any evidence for what Steve Jobs thought about government in any substantial sense - so you cannot claim he wasn't 'pro-government' and more than anyone else can claim that he was
steve jobs would have created Apple regardless of whether government was funding his school or not BECAUSE his uncle introduced him to electronics from a young age. theres nothing to say he wouldn't have got far without "government help", whatever that means. i don't see where he got the extra 'help' from government. i don't see direct contributions that helped Apple and Mr jobs to create the things he did.
like i said, the government are responsible for what we have today, but whats to say it wouldn't have been BETTER with them controlling less ? we want better ourselves and not get choked by history and the present. if we did, we would still have slaves because that's how it had always been before it got abolished, we'd still be worshiping kings and queens, because that's how it had always been. i'm pretty sure people like you from back then were saying the same thing you are saying now "slavery has gotten us this far though, who's gunna pick the cotten ?? cotten helps businesses, we need slaves" blah blah blah.. we managed without it in the end didn't we .. and for the better, we moved on from the slave era. we can move on from this dictatorship era too.
In that article, he was critisizing the government. being pro-something means you support them. i wasn't seeing support for the government in that article.
steve jobs would have created Apple regardless of whether government was funding his school or not BECAUSE his uncle introduced him to electronics from a young age. theres nothing to say he wouldn't have got far without "government help", whatever that means. i don't see where he got the extra 'help' from government. i don't see direct contributions that helped Apple and Mr jobs to create the things he did.
like i said, the government are responsible for what we have today, but whats to say it wouldn't have been BETTER with them controlling less ? we want better ourselves and not get choked by history and the present. if we did, we would still have slaves because that's how it had always been before it got abolished, we'd still be worshiping kings and queens, because that's how it had always been. i'm pretty sure people like you from back then were saying the same thing you are saying now "slavery has gotten us this far though, who's gunna pick the cotten ?? cotten helps businesses, we need slaves" blah blah blah.. we managed without it in the end didn't we .. and for the better, we moved on from the slave era. we can move on from this dictatorship era too.
In that article, he was critisizing the government. being pro-something means you support them. i wasn't seeing support for the government in that article.
Lol being 'pro-government' doesn't mean you support everything done by any government - it means you support the idea that government should exist as an institution. I have often remarked on how much I hate the current British government and their policies - that makes me anti-THIS-government, but not 'anti-government' - big difference . You're constructing these things to mean much more than they really do...
The rest of your argument really just sounds like a teenager saying to his parents, 'yeah, I know you brought me up, housed me, fed me, and gave me an allowance every month - but I'm not grateful because if I hadn't had you for parents, I would have had someone else who probably would have done a better job!'
Lol being 'pro-government' doesn't mean you support everything done by any government - it means you support the idea that government should exist as an institution. I have often remarked on how much I hate the current British government and their policies - that makes me anti-THIS-government, but not 'anti-government' - big difference . You're constructing these things to mean much more than they really do...
The rest of your argument really just sounds like a teenager saying to his parents, 'yeah, I know you brought me up, housed me, fed me, and gave me an allowance every month - but I'm not grateful because if I hadn't had you for parents, I would have had someone else who probably would have done a better job!'
if you are pro-government, you support the idea of the government and what it does. if you are pro-government, you are pro-tax. Mr Jobs is clearly not pro-tax, however he is not anti-tax either.
yeh, but my parents did a good job raising me. i'm a perfectly healthy. i was brought up in a nice neighborhood, around nice people. i couldn't be raised any better... HOWEVER if my parents were abusive i'd tell them to F*** off for making my life hell and move on to better ways. in YOUR case, you'd just accept the abuse, and then you start abusing your children because thats how YOU were brought up, and then abuse goes down generation to generation and it gets accepted generation to generation.
if you are pro-government, you support the idea of the government and what it does. if you are pro-government, you are pro-tax. Mr Jobs is clearly not pro-tax, however he is not anti-tax either.
How do you know he wasn't 'pro-tax'? You didn't show any proof either way.
You think America is "free market"? Try this test. Paint the word "TAXI" on the side of your car, and pull up in front of the terminal at the airport. See if you encounter any government intervention. Set a chair next to a public roadway, and put up a sign that says "Haircuts: $5". See now quickly you would be run off by government intervention. Open a restaurant, or a bus line, or a pharmacy, or a bank, or a radio station. See if there is any government intervention in your "free market".
All that government intervention is there for the sole purpose of obstructing a free market from cutting in on the established corporate power structure.
Damn that was a good answer. Very true. Free market is laughable. Free country is starting to sound ridiculous. I haven't traveled much yet so I don't know much about how it is in other countries, but here in America, the "land of the free" isn't that free at all anymore in my opinion. And I mean no offense to lesbians/gays, but isn't there more important issues that need dealt with besides gay rights??? Like the Monsanto Protection Act Obama just signed??? ...because I happen to think that what they're doing to our food is a much more important issue.
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being 'pro-government' doesn't mean you support everything done by any government - it means you support the idea that government should exist as an institution. I have often remarked on how much I hate the current British government and their policies - that makes me anti-THIS-government, but not 'anti-government' - big difference 
