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10e/hr? There's not a lot of them. That's €1600 a month, which is only a bit over the poverty line, you're exaggerating here. Helsinki has the highest wages in the country and overwhelmingly the largest GDP production. And if you really make only 1600 a month, you're eligble for rent subsidies and other, something that doesn't exist in the Bay Area.
At one time I manage many Bay Area single family and apartments all with rent subsidies.
The Oakland Housing Authority guidelines for a family of 4 to qualify as low income is up to 65k
There are thousand of rent subsidized rentals in just San Francisco and Alameda counties.
I would tend to agree with you. Maybe even put the threshold at $300K but yeah, that's exactly the point. Even at NYC, life is alright after that threshold.
I did experience both sides of the Atlantic (Paris, Frankfurt area and NYC) but I avoid making comparisons because... it doesn't help much.
But the point is:
- For a similar job in my expertise in the same American company, I was making less in Europe
- However with my pay now, it would not be more attractive to live in Europe as I would pay more in taxes overall, even with high NYS/NYC income taxes
- For children (I am married with no kids so far), it would be worth exploring going back to Europe as the quality of education is less correlated to the money, though times are changing
The best trade-off is to go back to Europe for vacation. Plus, the dollar is stronger now compared to when I came so it's good .
As you said, living in Europe brings in a reality check. I have lived for nearly 4 years in UK and though I enjoyed my time there I knew it was not the country for me. USA has many more opportunities to rise up fast, work hard and earn more and get to keep more of it without giving it away in taxes. I have an entrepreneurial spirit and find that it is recognized and appreciated more here.
Children, education and Europe - though Europe might have free and high quality education it comes with some limitations
1. They want conformity. So high achievers do not have an option to rise above on a separate track. My daughter is very bright and got into a gifted school at elementary school level. She gets to do far more than the standard curriculum and take advanced high school classes, and in high school will get to take some college credits. That separate track is not available in most European countries.
2. The separation of children into academic and vocational track. My close friend worked for an American company in Germany and his young kids studied there. What he told me was that around 6th grade level or so the students are separated into vocational track and academic track and only the academic track kids get to go to regular college / University. Switching from a vocational track to academic track in high school is quite difficult. I would hate for a school to make a determination that my daughter is fit to only become a plumber at age 13 and I have not the resources to fight the decision.
3. College is not free any more in UK and the college costs are rising fast. Of course the tuition costs are nowhere near USA levels but when you earn less the impact is proportionately more.
I do not dispute that overall, for an average family the education in Western Europe might be better but in certain situations it is better in USA.
I don't know what this thread is about. EU has 27 countries. Italy is unbelievably expensive, much more expensive than most of the US. Spain is a lot cheaper, as cheap as the US. US is one of the cheapest places in the developed world. The only thing that is really bad is healthcare, but many people get it from their employer and don't really pay anything. When I talk with visitors from Canada, they can't believe how much cheaper almost everything is. Even people who visit from Bulgaria (which is very cheap) shop in the US like it's the end of the world. I agree that infrastructure in Europe is superior to that in the US. Roads are much nicer and public transportation is a lot better.
Last edited by Botev1912; 01-22-2015 at 11:12 AM..
Austria, Germany,.. Go to Eastern Europe and you'll find 1l milk for 1 euro, if not less.
Many of my friends, families of four spend $2k/month only for food. Talking about New York. I am not familiar with other parts of the country that well.
do you even know what the median income in Eastern European countries is? Most people in Bulgaria get ~250-300 euros a month. Now what is called misery.
Last edited by Botev1912; 01-22-2015 at 11:13 AM..
do you even know what the median income in Eastern European countries is? Most people in Bulgaria get ~250-300 euros a month. Now what is called misery.
Klara is just making up stuff. She thinks Midtown Manhattan is typical for the U.S., and now claims that Moldova is typical for Europe.
10e/hr? There's not a lot of them. That's €1600 a month, which is only a bit over the poverty line, you're exaggerating here. Helsinki has the highest wages in the country and overwhelmingly the largest GDP production. And if you really make only 1600 a month, you're eligble for rent subsidies and other, something that doesn't exist in the Bay Area.
Maybe i am, that's my perception though. I don't see the tons and tons of students and such working part-time in retail, restaurant, or other low-level service work making much past that. Not that i really could envy the police officers, nurses, electricians, plumbers, teachers, or such who have to work and live there on their rather sheitty earnings.
Must be a real morale booster for them to work day and night and then go to your sheitty apartment block to see your neighbor living on welfare subsidies making almost as much by sitting on their ass, swilling Pirkka beer and producing the next generation of slacker kids with the old lady
Can we all just agree (even if we don't) with these people that Europe is cheap? these people sure are very passionate and outspoken about how they want others to view Europe... for whatever reason
How would you know? You have never even been to Europe like most Americans replying here. Admittedly, Europeans are just as ignorant about costs of living in the US as Americans are about costs of living in Europe. They heard fuel is cheap, an iPhone is cheap so everything must be cheap in the US. Quite the reasoning process.
When considering the total costs of living, and not just selectively looking at the few things that are cheaper in the US, Europe is generally much cheaper when comparing cities of equal size/importance in more or less equally developed regions. I moved back from the US about 4 years ago and I spend far less over here. The Netherlands is among the most expensive countries in Europe and I did not even live in expensive areas in the US along the coasts. Rents and housing in general, costs of health-care/insurance, costs of college/university, and groceries amongst other are the real deal breakers in the US.
It is really a non-discussion, just like the US being the most developed country, having the best education system, being the richest, etc. All of that is not true yet Americans persistently refuse to accept this because they believe they are entitled to all of it.
Maybe i am, that's my perception though. I don't see the tons and tons of students and such working part-time in retail, restaurant, or other low-level service work making much past that. Not that i really could envy the police officers, nurses, electricians, plumbers, teachers, or such who have to work and live there on their rather sheitty earnings.
Must be a real morale booster for them to work day and night and then go to your sheitty apartment block to see your neighbor living on welfare subsidies making almost as much by sitting on their ass, swilling Pirkka beer and producing the next generation of slacker kids with the old lady
Police Officers, Nurses, Electricians, Plumbers are at the high end of the pay scale here in California... (Alameda County and Oakland CA)
12 from my high school class went right into law enforcement after 2 years of study... all have retired and their retirement, depending of specifics ranges from a low of 80k to 180k plus lifetime medical...
The guy with the 180k pension retired at age 51 and got bored and now works for the county earning another 130k and getting his pension...
Teachers are different in that starting pay and pay can be very low or quite good at the University Level... also teachers do have a lot more time for holiday, schooling etc...
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