changing child's name (birth, options, African, parents)

[kaykee]

Originally Posted by JustJulia

I agree. Barring some really good reason I haven't heard yet, I don't think birth certs should be changed. And I don't think people should be routinely denied access to their original records.

Edited: Sorry, my post was a reply to Dark of the Moon. My questions about requiring birth certificates was because I was contemplating whether (and how) we require birth mothers to identify themselves.

NOTE: Again, these quoting buttons are quoting more than what I want, or, they are repeating quotes from my previous comments. MODS: please fix this problem.

In answer to JustJulia (I had to cut out other quotes...)

If you really don't think that birth certificates of adoptees should be changed, why don't you join the protest against this practice?

Do you support the sealing of adoptees' true birth ceriticates?

I know you split the topics once before, but this is really the same issue. If adoptees' names at birth, and parents of birth, were respected and not changed, we would not need to be asking the questions about changing adoptees' names due to adoption.

Simply talking about "changing names, yes or no?" does not address the underlying legal aspects of the consequences of changing the adoptee's name upon adoption.

Adoptees legal identities are changed. This is identity theft.

How would YOU like it if it happened to you?

If adoptive parents want to adopt a child, you should honor and respect who you are adopting. That means allowing that child to retain her or his name at birth. If you want to Americanize a nickname, then do so informally.

When my children were young, we had friends from Japan. They taught us how to pronounce their son's name. The children were playmates. No one made a big deal out of the Japanese boy with the funny-sounding name. He was accepted for who he was. This family moved back to Japan, but there are immigrants who come to America and keep their names. We don't force them to change their names because we want them to be American and sound just like us.

Hmmm. I destinctly remember meeting real Africans. They taught me how to pronounce their African names. And nieghbors down the street from India kept their names, too.

You want to adopt a homeless child from a foreign country? How about respecting who that child is by keeping that child's name at birth and real birth certificate?

[MirrenC]

Originally Posted by nimchimpsky

I was always under the impression that "bastard" was a mildly offensive term, or at least a "rough-around-the-edges" term. I find it interesting you used it so much in a post defending adoptees' rights. Am I out of the loop here or is "bastard" not the first choice most adoptees here would use to describe themselves?

I self-refer as a "bastard" regularly. Bastard Nation, one of the early activist groups, reclaimed the name. Technically, it means "fatherless child," I am a definitely one of those. I also meet regularly with a group of other adoptees in the Bay Area, and we call ourselves the "Bay Area Bastards," openly.

I think that "bastard" and "illegitimate" were meant to taint us, and that our adoptions were meant to "save" us from that taint; we hide in plain sight "as if born to" our aparents, although we of course are not. We know that we were born to one family and adopted by another, and we don't apportion shame, so the term doesn't matter. When people use it as a put-down, of course, it sucks, but it's like any other moniker of a minority that is reclaimed, I suppose, for internal use. Some of my adoptee friends had married original parents even, and don't qualify as "illegitimate" at all, but still self-refer as bastards.

My take is that some of us use it for ourselves, but don't like it when "civilians" (that is, the non-adopted) use it to talk smack about us.

[kaykee]

Originally Posted by MirrenC

I self-refer as a "bastard" regularly. Bastard Nation, one of the early activist groups, reclaimed the name. Technically, it means "fatherless child," I am a definitely one of those. I also meet regularly with a group of other adoptees in the Bay Area, and we call ourselves the "Bay Area Bastards," openly.

I think that "bastard" and "illegitimate" were meant to taint us, and that our adoptions were meant to "save" us from that taint; we hide in plain sight "as if born to" our aparents, although we of course are not. We know that we were born to one family and adopted by another, and we don't apportion shame, so the term doesn't matter. When people use it as a put-down, of course, it sucks, but it's like any other moniker of a minority that is reclaimed, I suppose, for internal use. Some of my adoptee friends had married original parents even, and don't qualify as "illegitimate" at all, but still self-refer as bastards.

My take is that some of us use it for ourselves, but don't like it when "civilians" (that is, the non-adopted) use it to talk smack about us.

This is why one of my screenames elsewhere on some other forums and my own website is "legitimatebastard".

The government made me the way I am. Since the gov claims I was re-born to parents I know did not sire nor give birth to me, and those claims were made solely out of the hate-filled bigotry of the past that still binds us, then I, too, wear the badge bestowed upon me ON MY OWN TERMS.

By the way, when a person does not live in reality, but lives in fantasy, claiming a false identity or having a split personality, this is the roots of many mental illnesses. Adoptees are then diagnosed as having personality disorders and identity confusion. Whose fault is that? We did not create the problem.

The other end is also true. If parents did not give birth to become parents, but they re-name someone else's child as to re-create a birth, then there is a fanstasy mindset in these parents. They are living in non-reality and begin to believe the falsehoods as if true. Splitting. Opositional defiant. Rationalizing.

I've said it here in other threads: read The Primal Wound. And, Coming Home to Self. Both by Nancy Verrier, adoptive mother and therapist.

Read adoption psychology books by David Brodzinsky, and H. David Kirk. How about Annette Baran and Reuban Panor? Has any adoptive parent looked up these authors and read their books? If you did, you'd know how adoptees feel about having their names changed. But then, these books were writen well-before your time. They are too old to have any meaning to you. All that matters is that you have adopted a child and you want to believe that your adoptee won't turn out to be just like us.

[sheena12]

Originally Posted by psr13

I really like the name Anastasia and would ask a child named Nastya if that change would be OK. No way could I keep Nastya as a first name.

I like Anastasia too. An alternative nick name in Russian speaking countries as Anya or Ana.

I like Anya and I think that is a name that would play well cross culturally.

[sheena12]

Originally Posted by Dark of the Moon

Actually, no, I haven't. I've read every post in every thread here over the past week or so and NO ONE has said that. What people HAVE said is that there should be options so that children don't have to be taken from their families and/or homelands. They've also said that adoption should be about what's best for the child, not for the would-be parents. No one has said that adoption -- national or international --should be abolished, but that it should be a last resort, not a first choice.

I wish you'd take a step back and really listen to what people are saying, instead of assuming that everything is an attack on you -- because it's not.


.

It is an attack on me, when people are telling me what my daughter feels when she does not feel that way.

It's an attack when people have said that I and other adoptive parents should learn to live childless/ It's child free when it's your choice. Childless when you didn;t chose it.

Why don't you take a step back and see how the plethora of negative comments could be hurtful.

I made comments and I'm asking you to respond. Do you agree that the fact is that in a world where there are children without families, it's a good thing that people are wiling, anxious even to parent and love the children birthed by other's?

Do you also understand that I have no problem with you being able to see the records that are so important to you?

If you have a petition I'll sign it.

Do you think that children have the same rights as adults? They do not. I doubt that they ever will.
When parents divorce which they do 50% of the time or more - do adults need to ask permission?

Do you also think that I should enlighten my daughter to be unhappy that she was adopted?

As a fellow veg*n, can you understand that my daughter has no desire to visit Korea, where dogs and cats ate boiled alive and skinned alive? I understand it.Do you?

Should I force her to go to culture camp when she hates the idea? Should I force her to call herself Tae Hee? She loves her first name and it suits her.

Does it bother you that we decided to adopt internationally?

I have answered your questions and I hope you will answer mine.

Sheena

[sheena12]

The children who we are hosting this Holiday Season are different than the first two. The boy is named OLEG.

The girl OLGA Oilesya for short. There is a difference in opinion here and I know that there are those of you who don't believe in changing a child's name in any circumstance. I think it depends and every name and each situation is different.

I think that children can be psychologcally damaged just as much by having a bad and disliked name. I also think that many children do not want names given to them by people who have hurt them.

These kids were removed from their home and want to come to America.

I'd like to hear from people who see shades of gray about what you would do in this situation. We do not intend to keep these names.

I'm not looking to debate this from those of you who are against it no matter what, I'd like to hear from others who would tell me what they would do. Oleg is a beauiful little boy with an ugly name. In his own country it is rare to find anyone under 55 with that name. Olga falls into the Bertha, Gertrude, Mildred category.

Not just in my mind, but there are people who study names and the perception others have of them.

Some names are nerdy, others ditsy, some competent, beautiful, and intelligent. I have read these studies and I agree with them.

P.S. I really got a laugh out of the idea that at some point in the future my daughter is gou=ing to want to change her name to Tae Hee Woo.

[susankate]

Originally Posted by sheena12

The children who we are hosting this Holiday Season are different than the first two. The boy is named OLEG.

The girl OLGA Oilesya for short. There is a difference in opinion here and I know that there are those of you who don't believe in changing a child's name in any circumstance. I think it depends and every name and each situation is different.

I think that children can be psychologcally damaged just as much by having a bad and disliked name. I also think that many children do not want names given to them by people who have hurt them.

These kids were removed from their home and want to come to America.

I'd like to hear from people who see shades of gray about what you would do in this situation. We do not intend to keep these names.

I'm not looking to debate this from those of you who are against it no matter what, I'd like to hear from others who would tell me what they would do. Oleg is a beauiful little boy with an ugly name. In his own country it is rare to find anyone under 55 with that name. Olga falls into the Bertha, Gertrude, Mildred category.

Not just in my mind, but there are people who study names and the perception others have of them.

Some names are nerdy, others ditsy, some competent, beautiful, and intelligent. I have read these studies and I agree with them.

P.S. I really got a laugh out of the idea that at some point in the future my daughter is gou=ing to want to change her name to Tae Hee Woo.

You don't say how old they are.

1. Ask the children what they want to do. They may want to keep their names.
2. Ask them also if they would like to choose an English middle name.

This then gives them the choice down the line to decide on whether to continue to use their Russian name or their English name.

Looking at both names, there aer similar sounding English names - Oleg - Oliver/Alec; Oilesya sounds not too different to Olivia - a lovely name. Again, though, this would be up to the child.

Think maybe about what you would like if you were being adopted by a Ukranian couple and they disliked the name Sheena and wanted to change it to something else - perhaps Olga for example. What would you want the couple to do.

P.S. I really got a laugh out of the idea that at some point in the future my daughter is gou=ing to want to change her name to Tae Hee Woo.

Since no-one has actually said that, then I'm not sure of the point of you saying it.

It is an attack on me, when people are telling me what my daughter feels when she does not feel that way.

It's an attack when people have said that I and other adoptive parents should learn to live childless/ It's child free when it's your choice. Childless when you didn;t chose it.

Rubbish. No-one has said anything of the sort. A novel idea - try reading what people are trying to say rather than what you think they are saying.

[keribus72]

You know what Sheena, you are downright disrespectful and so full of contempt for the adult adoptees who have lived with being adopted their whole lives that I for one weep for your adopted daughter and future children. Your constant cries of persecution are just bizarre when almost nothing you claim to have been said has actually been said by anyone.

My adoptive mother was and continues to be contemptuous of my biological origins. As a child, I didn't realise how much of an impact that had on me but as an adult, it hit me. Her contempt for my biological family meant that she had contempt for me, for the genetic parts of me that I cannot change. I turned myself inside out trying to be the pretty little daughter that she wanted but I could never be that. When I decided that I couldn't do it anymore, that I was like my natural family and I was happy about that, my adoptive mother cut me out of her life. Your contempt for your adoptees' origins MIGHT cause the same thing. Your adopted child and future adopted children MIGHT one day decide that they care about where and who they are from - I didn't as a child, but I sure do now. Please note, I did not say that your adopted daughter feels the way I do now, nor that she definitely will in the future, just that she MIGHT.

[sheena12]

Originally Posted by keribus72

You know what Sheena, you are downright disrespectful and so full of contempt for the adult adoptees who have lived with being adopted their whole lives that I for one weep for your adopted daughter and future children. Your constant cries of persecution are just bizarre when almost nothing you claim to have been said has actually been said by anyone. susankate is on your ignore list so I will tell you at least one thing that she said - "try reading what people are actually saying rather than what you think they are saying."
My adoptive mother was and continues to be contemptuous of my biological origins. As a child, I didn't realise how much of an impact that had on me but as an adult, it hit me. Her contempt for my biological family meant that she had contempt for me, for the genetic parts of me that I cannot change. I turned myself inside out trying to be the pretty little daughter that she wanted but I could never be that. When I decided that I couldn't do it anymore, that I was like my natural family and I was happy about that, my adoptive mother cut me out of her life. Your contempt for your adoptees' origins MIGHT cause the same thing. Your adopted child and future adopted children MIGHT one day decide that they care about where and who they are from - I didn't as a child, but I sure do now. Please note, I did not say that your adopted daughter feels the way I do now, nor that she definitely will in the future, just that she MIGHT.

DID I ASK THIS QUESTION? YOU ARE NOT ANSWERING THE QUESTION POSED. I am sorry for your pain and you should think about seeking some help.

I have no contempt for my the person who birthed my daughter. She is a smart woman and did not let an unplanned pregnancy ruin her academic career.

Do you have children? I know mine. I also raised them. And I love them and they love me.
Not all adoptive parents are rejecting and nasty. I think you are projecting your experiences on to all parents who adopt.

Some BIOLOGICAL Parents do the same thing. I will never ever be the daughter my father wanted. So I don't try. Nor do I see him. My mom died when I was 20. My family as I knew it ended then. Your situation is not unique to adopted people. You have a lot in common with people who have bad parents.

I've also had a lot of therapy. My children all know where they are from. My son was born in NY and my daughter was born in Korea. The ones that I am about to adopt know that they are from Ukraine and were taken away from their mother.

I do not think any of them will want to know more. I once again think there is a difference between American adoptees and International Adoptees.

[sheena12]

May we please return to the topic now?