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Yeah, I probably shouldn't even have responded to her post, but I didn't make any "threats" in it. And you'll find out when/if you get there about the "local feed store," lol. Goats are probably marginally possible, but POW just isn't livestock country.
Sorry, but posters who come here asking for advice and then get pissy when the advice isn't what they want to hear really get on my nerves. I had actually thought that I'd edited the last part out, though. In real life, I'm really not so mean that I'd advise people not to hire someone unless they did work for me that was sub-standard but we see it all the time -- people who come up and think that because something worked down south it's going to work on POW.
Some of her ideas will work, some won't, but the ideas aren't even the issue.
I've given this person lots of advice, especially about jobs and so on, but I don't think she appreciated it. Oh well.
Last edited by Metlakatla; 04-14-2012 at 07:12 AM..
Why is it an "ouch"? The Alaska F&G website will tell you the same thing that I did. Perhaps you should have focused your research on the real regulations involving what you want to do rather than whatever you found on the internet that vaguely told you what you wanted to hear.
It's an 'ouch' because you have been getting increasingly antagonistic and sarcastic, and I'm not inclined to let people take that tone with me without some sort of calling out, even if it's as minor a calling out as saying 'ouch'. I'm not normally vindictive or condescending, but neither am I going to tacitly allow someone to verbally (textually?) flay me when I feel it's unwarranted. My research has included the F&G site, the State Veterinarian site, calls made, and yes, the link you just posted, as well as many many other sites, because I like to incorporate MORE than just one or two sites in my research. Yes, research.
I'm aware that the letter on that site noted 'ornamental' fish, which is why we were considering other options as well, as F&G is not as definitive on the subject as I would like. They are all about fishing and hunting, and fish farms that are connected to the wild (I have found nothing specifically addressing closed systems, such as we would build). Even the State Veterinarian site doesn't address it, so yes, all I have to go on is THAT SITE, which directly addresses the issue and does give a tentative basis for our plans, subject to revision upon further data. However, like I said before, we are unsure of the tilapia angle anyway, as 300 gallons isn't enough to raise much. But, regardless of whether we wind up raising tilapia, goldfish, fresh water shrimp, or whatever other species we get it into our heads to try, the fact remains that we will be able to have something cold-blooded in the tank that will poop, and that poop will be rich in nutrients, and will fulfill the requirements of an aquaponics setup.
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I'm guessing that your "research" went no farther than this page, which is an absolute joke of the first order:
I would advise that you not consider internet...resources...such as this to be any kind of gospel truth. The people on this site can't apparently can't even read, let alone spell, or they would have understood that the F&G official that they're quoting wasn't referencing anything other than ornamental aquarium fish. If you're planning on raising goldfish as a "backup plan", best of luck to you.
FFS. You can't even bring a dog into the state of Alaska without certification; what on earth makes you think that you can import live fish or fish eggs without some sort of regulation? You found some lame source on the internet and have the nerve to call that "research."
Actually, I don't believe I said that I would just be able to bring anything in without any hoops to jump through. Dogs, cats, and ferrets (not that I have any ferrets) require nothing more than a current rabies shot and a small animal health certificate. Goats require a bit more, but still not prohibitive as long as they are healthy. 'Fish' is the only topic I was unable to find definitive information on, hence my tentative acceptance of what I found on that site.
Oh and goldfish are extremely easy to raise, they can take a lot of stress, and they grow pretty big when put in a large aquarium. I'm sure you were being sarcastic, but honestly, if we aren't going to be eating what's in the aquarium, then goldfish is probably our best bet. Either that or catching something and putting it in the tank, but I'm leery of that for other reasons.
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Personally, I don't give a rat's ass whether you grow your tulapia in aquariums in your container home up to the rafters on the bottom of your rooftop greenhouse, but you need to know that you.cannot.legally.import.live.fish.into.the.State .of.Alaska without going through the proper channels.and.even.then.it.is,a.very.difficult.proc ess. There is a reason why backyard fish farming doesn't happen in Alaska. Do some real research rather than trying to pass of tenuous internet postings as some sort of gospel truth.
Okay, now if I were a vindictive twit, I could tell you to get a 5th grader to read your posts, like you did in that other thread. It's 'tilapia'. Not that I care about spelling, but it does irritate me when people sneer at other people for misspellings and then go on to make their own mistakes.
'Proper channels' is all fine and good, and that's part of what we're involved in finding out. I do appreciate the tips and help I've gotten here, some of it from you, I just don't appreciate the tone. Even here, your little periods to emphasize your point are condescending and petty. Next you'll be suggesting you speak in smaller words so that I can understand better.
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I'd suggest that you become as self sufficient as possible, since I don't think that you're going to fit in with the locals. It isn't your "ideas" that won't fit in, but rather, as I stated before, your attitude. You seem to want to spit in the face of anyone who offers you advice, even though you supposedly came here asking for "advice."
Actually in my first post I said I was coming here saying 'hi', and putting forth our current plans for moving. Though I welcomed feedback, I wasn't specifically asking for advice. But then again, it could be argued that that's just semantics, because I did, in fact, ask questions once the thread got moving.
That's neither here nor there, though. Metlakatla, you offer your 'advice' with a sledgehammer. If it's not taken, with the requisite humility, then you go on the attack. I've been nothing but friendly in this thread. Yes I'm stubborn, but I don't see that as a bad thing...if I were the type to just flip-flop and flutter my hands in distress at the first sign of difficulty, I doubt I'd make it anywhere. And if you are the type to demand that someone hang on your every word, taking YOUR advice as 'Gospel Truth', then you aren't the kind of person I want to hang around anyway.
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Thank you so much for informing me that windows on the south side are "protected from the wind." I never would have known that if you hadn't been kind enough to mention it. Good Heavens, someone should have had the courtesy to tell the winds on POW that it just isn't polite to blow from that pesky south side, because they do it on a regular basis.
Actually, I believe I mentioned that the greenhouse is to be inside the house. As in, walls everywhere. The mention of windows on the south side was in reference to sunlight. 'Protected from wind and animals' was in reference to the inside-aspect of the whole thing. Sneering at me for making a point that I didn't in fact make kind of paints you as foolish, in my opinion. No offense, but you might want to read something a little more thoroughly before you go into heavy-sarcasm mode.
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It has already been pointed out to you that livestock animals cannot adequately forage in a rain forest so let me say it one.more.time. The available forage materials don't contain enough nutrients to keep the animals alive. Again, the rain.leaches.out.nutrients.from.the.ground.
Really? I guess the wild goats on the island are special, mutated goats that have been altered in some way to subsist off of plant life that is completely lacking in nutrients, then.
Oh and you completely ignored my whole point about the fodder system. But that's understandable, it would be hard for you to drag me over the coals about the nutritional requirements of animals that I am already raising if you actually conceded that I was keeping their nutritional requirements in mind.
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I'm glad that you're able to hold your own after consuming numerous cocktails.
That skill may be of more value to you than any of your other wild ideas.
I'd say that I can't say the same for you, but apparently you're like this all the time.
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But again, it isn't your wild ideas that are the problem. It's your attitude. You state that you don't "like to be told no"--but no one has told you "no" here. They've just tried to offer you the advice that you came here asking for.
Again, if you bring the attitude that you've portrayed here to POW, I sincerely hope that you can survive without jobs.
Up until this post, I have been friendly and accommodating. Even when I was irritated, I stated so without being insulting. The same cannot be said for you.
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Best of luck to ya. I'm someone who has a small degree of influence over my friends and neighbors on POW...I won't be recommending your services to anyone.
...and this is what tipped me from being 'friendly' toward you, to just not caring what the hell you think of me. Really? I don't like your advice, so you imply that you're going to use your influence to screw me (and by association, my family) over? Bite me.
Remember, sledgehammers aren't necessary. You offer your advice, and then go ballistic if someone questions you or disagrees. You go into personal attacks when they aren't warranted. Please don't respond in this thread anymore, because I simply don't want to have you and your negativity here. And I sincerely hope that we never run into each other on the island.
Frostnip, I'm set on POW because Alaska has laws that I like, it's out-of-the-way, and I have political ideals that make it attractive. We have friends who are also moving there, which is a factor as well. Not to mention, it's beautiful
Skinnyguy, thank you, yeah I don't think goats would be too hard to feed/raise. I appreciate the defense as well.
Met - Don't stop giving advice though. You have been there and know what is it like and for those of us that have vetted you it is helpful.
This is a mostly anonymous blog, anyone that makes a life or death decisions solely by what another anonymous person posts in a blog is foolish. It can help direct you to areas to research and verify that what was said or what you are thinking is correct or incorrect.
Really? I guess the wild goats on the island are special, mutated goats that have been altered in some way to subsist off of plant life that is completely lacking in nutrients, then.
So are you going to try hunting for mountain goats on POW? Good luck with that.
I think they tried to introduce them once back in the 90s but they all died off.
I don't mind the advice, and I don't even mind making nice with people I've argued with. What I do mind is being talked down to. Yes, I'm sure there are problems that need to be addressed, and some things aren't going to be viable. But being told that bears are going to eat my animals is not 'advice'. Asking how I am going to deal with bears in the area, suggesting electric fencing, suggesting carrying pepper spray when I go out, THAT's advice. There is a difference.
And yes, I know Met wasn't the one who said that, but that was the easiest example to bring up off the top of my head.
When personal attacks come into play, something's wrong. I don't mind being told what's wrong with my ideas and changing them accordingly. Your guys' comments about the rooftop greenhouse did result in a change of plans. My post where I ended with a playful (as indicated by the tongue-smiley) jab at still doing one notwithstanding, I did value the input I received on wind and such being a problem.
But personal attacks? Snide remarks? Implications of sabotage? Condescension? I'm unwilling to let those roll off my back, and still make nice in return. I'll take any real advice and I'll be glad to be friends with anyone who wants that, but I am not a doormat, nor am I willing to act like one and kiss anyone's derriere just because they know more than I do about a certain subject. I'm sure I know more about other subjects than certain people, and I'm equally sure that I'd share my knowledge without treating someone like an idiot that shouldn't talk back or question me.
But I'll retract my request for Met to stay out of the thread. Maybe I'll regret it, but I don't like shutting avenues of conversation down anyway, so...Metlakatla, if you want to keep posting here, feel free. Please keep the attitude at bay, and I'll do the same.
I don't need your permission to keep posting here.
Yeah, I was probably too hard on you last night.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going mountain goat hunting.
No you don't need my permission, but I give it anyway
Moving on sounds nice, I'm good with that.
And if you want to go mountain goat hunting, here's a link to some guys that might help you - Southeast Alaska hunting adventures with Muskeg Excursions. Might not be in exactly the same space, but I'm thinking that Ketchikan vegetation is probably pretty similar to POW vegetation.
Honestly I'm not going mountain goat hunting. All I'm saying is, if the local vegetation can support mountain goats (even if bears/wolves/hunters have killed them off), then that local vegetation should be sufficient for my goats. Since I won't be letting my goats roam all over the place and eating willy-nilly, I presume I'll have to supplement that with either sprouted barley or (if the barley doesn't work) limited hay.
Yes, I know the guy, and I also know that he doesn't do mountain goat hunts on POW -- because there aren't any mountain goats on POW. You said something earlier about how they must be special mutants because they can live there.
Now take a look at those photos of goats on Johnnie's site. You won't see mountaintops that look much like that on POW; I can only think of a couple of spots that go above the timberline like that. So no, mountain goats really don't do well on POW and it isn't because of wolves or hunters.
Now, if you would have been at the local Moose Lodge slugging down screwdrivers and talking with locals about goat-keeping, you would have heard remarks similar to what you've heard here, and Lord help you if you'd mentioned anything about how the wild goats can live in the area and even the Lord wouldn't be able to help you if you'd mentioned that you can farm tilipia or however the hell it's spelled -- in your house because it says so on the internet.
Under the right circumstances, you probably can raise goats on POW, but their foraging activity is going to have to be supplemented, and I don't believe that the "feed store" mentioned earlier in this thread has an actual storefront at this time. I think they work out of their house, and the last I heard, they lived in Hollis, which has a greater variety of vegetation that the other side of the island. Drive over there and you'll see what I mean; there are actual open meadows in the Harris River area. I have a friend who has a pigmy goat, but he's more of a pet than anything.
It isn't your ideas -- some will work, some won't, but there are rules and regulations in Alaska as well. One of the reasons that we've got the salmon runs that we do is because Alaska F&G has done such a good job of regulating the catch. If we didn't have those regulations, we'd be in the same shape as the fisheries on the Oregon and California coasts.
I don't need your permission to keep posting here.
Yeah, I was probably too hard on you last night.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going mountain goat hunting.
I saw these guys last month off the Seward Hwy. just outside of Anchorage. They told me they had just flown in that morning from POW...said there were too many damn hunters.
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