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Old 12-28-2013, 08:35 AM
 
18,131 posts, read 25,296,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargentodiaz View Post
It also doesn't help that US officials continue to impose a stupid and harmful embargo that only causes tens of thousands to suffer. Go here BBC News - In pictures: Housing in Havana to see some truly heartbreaking pictures.
Cuba is a big country, 5 pictures don't show what a country is like

Cuba is the same size as Portugal and Tennessee
Cuba has 5,746 km (3,570 mi) of coastline compared to Florida's 2170 km (1350 mi)



Here's a video of people touring Havana

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Old 12-28-2013, 09:08 AM
 
4,651 posts, read 4,594,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
You can look at statistics, some times manufactured by gov'ts. Or you can look at how people are living. I see no difference in how large numbers of people in Havana live and how people live in Rio's favelas. That is aside from the violent crime in Rio. However if Cubans didn't have its extensive secret police networks I feel confident that crime will be high there too.

In Brazil one can protest the conditions and demand that gov't and the elites take action to solve their problems.

In Cuba if one protests one that gets a visit from the police, accused of being counter revolutionary and potentially tossed in the lock ups.

Cubans have high literacy rates, but this hasn't translated into high living standards, based on those pictures. And there is a potential danger in that lower level jobs like taxi drivers and others involved in tourism earn way more than those in the professions. They also earn money in CUCs so can buy stuff in the more free market oriented stores which are better stocked.

Most Cubans, including the professionals who aren't in tourism or aren't part of the political elite get paid in pesos. So at some point (if it hasn't already happened) younger Cubans might think that education is a waste of time and their energies are better spent in tourism, or hustling in the underground economy.


And the diet of the average Cuban is horrendous because the state stores which accept pesos are empty and the special stores which are better stocked accept CUCs only, which most Cubans don't earn. And unlike other places there is little that people can do about it, so its filled many with a feeling of hopelessness and even despair.

Reality is that you can look at the stats which are impressive but there is no way that you would want to actually live in that country unless you were very connected to the elites, or were involved in tourism. To quote a cousin of mine who lives in Trinidad, only the poorest 5% of Trinidadians would want to live in Cuba. She has visited Cuba several times.
Statistics manufactured by gov'ts yes, including in western democraties
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:30 PM
 
8,572 posts, read 8,543,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
Every city in the World has ugly areas

Except that Cuba represents itself as a country which has achieved equality.
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:42 PM
 
8,572 posts, read 8,543,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scobby View Post
Statistics manufactured by gov'ts yes, including in western democraties

Here is the difference. Most nations allow some degree of freedom of expression. So if a gov't makes a representation there are many who will dispute those facts. So for instance in the USA we know that the unemployment numbers are bogus as they exclude the long term unemployed who no longer qualify for unemployment and that the real rate is at least 10%.

In Cuba what ever the gov't says goes. Saying otherwise means that you are deemed counter revolutionary and face the consequences. That country has a very high abortion rate, meaning that many who would otherwise die in other countries are aborted in Cuba. Try adding the abortion rate to the infant mortality rate and Cuba might stop looking so good.

Stop making an excuse for a dictatorship. Democracies aren't perfect, but hey you can wave your anti US flag, while living in the USA. Look at how many people in the USA say vile things about Obama without consequences. Was Donald Trump arrested for pushing that birther nonsense?

You can do so in virtually every other country in the Caribbean, with the possible exception of Haiti. Look at Barbados where the opposition party is having daily meetings blaming the gov't for mismanaging the economy.

You will not be able to do so in Cuba. Give me ONE example where dissidents were able to hold public meetings in Havana without having them broken up by Castro's goons.
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:46 PM
 
8,572 posts, read 8,543,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sargentodiaz View Post
It also doesn't help that US officials continue to impose a stupid and harmful embargo that only causes tens of thousands to suffer. Go here BBC News - In pictures: Housing in Havana to see some truly heartbreaking pictures.

Here is the deal. If Castro allows opposition parties to develp without being harassed and allows elections without obvious attempts to rig then the US will lose its moral authority, even within the USA itself, to keep the embargo. Its really stupid of them not to have done so under Obama because he is probably the most sympathetic president which Cuba would have to negotiate.

Why aren't Cubans given some nominal ability to select who their leaders should be?
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Old 12-28-2013, 12:56 PM
 
8,572 posts, read 8,543,481 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dopo View Post
Cuba is a big country, 5 pictures don't show what a country is like

Cuba is the same size as Portugal and Tennessee
Cuba has 5,746 km (3,570 mi) of coastline compared to Florida's 2170 km (1350 mi)



Here's a video of people touring Havana


Yes show the same buildings from several angles. Focus the camera on the sea when they were driving down the Malecon, focus on the middle of the wide boulevard (not built by Castro) so the sights of the buildings can be avoided.


You know one can show the sights in Port-au-Prince by focusing on some small areas and then come away with an impression that it isn't the sewer that it actually is.


There is a reason why most views of Havana, some made by people sympathetic to the Castro regime, show a city which is hugely deteriorated.

BECAUSE IT IS.


I understand that Santiago, the second largest city is in even worse shape. Jump on down as much as you wish but the Cuban experiment has been a huge failure. Cuba is now back to where it was in 1958 (or worse) with most of its vices and none of its virtues. Even Haiti has made some progress in the interim.
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Old 12-28-2013, 01:45 PM
 
5,781 posts, read 11,876,278 times
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Default you Marxists are so funny!

Quote:
Originally Posted by antma robel View Post
Socialism? Can we call it Socialism? One must read about it to define what it is exactly. There is not in Cuba, there was not socialism in the USSR.
About every socialist/communist regime since 1917, you say "it was not socialism" !
The Soviet Union : "not socialism"
China : "not socialism"
Cambodia : "not socialism"
Vietnam : "not socialism"
North Korea : "not socialism"
Zimbabwe , Algeria, Tanzania etc : "not socialism"
etc etc etc ....where is it hiding then that elusive socialism ? Venezuela maybe ?
I see you are Brazilians, and I acknowledge in Brazil there are 2 main parties , one is socialist (the PT former President Lula) and the other social democratic (il seems there is no conservative party to speak of in Brazil now, you must be happy). Maybe it's your country which is the only actual socialist country?
However Brazil is a country with a host of problems, so it is not a very good example of successful socialism in my book. It's common knowledge that the only successful socialist countries are the Scandinavians countries. Wait...they are not actually socialists , rather social democratic, in other words a soft version of capitalism.
How unlucky for you again...
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Old 12-28-2013, 03:37 PM
 
Location: SW Missouri
15,852 posts, read 35,142,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EduardoFinatto View Post
Having 76 percent of pregnant teenagers electing to abort “is a public health problem,” said Dr. Jorge Peláez, vice president of the Cuban Society of Obstetrics and Gynaecology.
Cuban Teenagers Overuse Abortion as Birth Control - Inter Press Service

They only let born the healthier ones, it's too much abortions. Easy to have these rates then.
Well, this explains a lot. You can't behave like animals and expect to live like humans. It is their collective karma catching up with them. People are NOT powerless over their lives, as the socialist/communist government would have you believe. Until people are willing to take responsibility for themselves, nothing will change, in fact, it will get worse.

How sad.

20yrsinBranson
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Old 12-28-2013, 07:27 PM
 
18,131 posts, read 25,296,596 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigeonhole View Post
I see you are Brazilians, and I acknowledge in Brazil there are 2 main parties , one is socialist (the PT former President Lula) and the other social democratic (il seems there is no conservative party to speak of in Brazil now, you must be happy)
And Brazil begin to improve when Socialist Lula Da Silva took over.

BBC News - How President Lula changed Brazil
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Old 12-28-2013, 09:19 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,554 posts, read 87,003,003 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Cuba is now back to where it was in 1958 (or worse)
. . . and more than 40 percent of all U.S. workers actually make less than what a full-time minimum wage worker made back in 1968.

http://soundmoneyinstitute.org/40-of...-minimum-wage/

Last edited by jtur88; 12-28-2013 at 09:35 PM..
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