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It makes perfect sense based on the definition assigned to it; again, it only doesn't make sense to those who think Latino has to mean of Latin descent, but, as I already explained, that's not what the term means to those who have coined the term. The term could've easily been "Bleluga" or "Tintito." Wouldn't make a difference. Again, words only have the meaning that we, people, assign to them, and there is no rule saying that there has to be one definition/understanding for a particular word/term. Why don't you understand that?
Because it doesn't make any sense. It's like saying the numbers three, five and seven are prime numbers but two isn't because most people don't think of it that way off the bat.
The Haitians connection to Cuba and the DR is because they found work in those islands. But in both places they were treated as scum. In fact migrants from the ANGLOPHONE Caribbean were treated BETTER in both places. A fact that Dominicans happily scream when others claim that their disdain for Haitians is based on race.
Note that Haiti is in CARICOM, while the DR is in Central American Common Market (CACM). Why isn't Haiti in the CACM, if they see themselves as a Latin American country?
So why don't Haitians live among Dominicans in NYC and not among Jamaicans and Guyanese and Trinidadians? People generally live among those who they feel most comfortable with.
Obviously Haitians don't feel comfortable among Hispanics, and decided that of all of the people who they had nothing in common with, at least they shared a black immigrant experience with blacks from the Anglophone Caribbean. Much as is the case with Nigerians.
Haitians in NYC are no more connected to Hispanics than they are to other Afro Caribbean people.
I no more buy the fact that Haitians are Hispanic, than Nigerians are Anglo Saxon. In fact Nigerians speak English and can communicate freely with the English.
I am also not aware that Dominicans in NYC embrace Haitians as fellow people from Hispaniola. In fact I do not even see evidence that Dominicans embrace a "Caribbean" identity.
The same applies to Miami where Haitians are LESS likely to live among Hispanics than are even BLACK AMERICANS! So obviously some thing is happening here that isn't reduced to some "accident".
Following your logic, Colombians and Dominicans don't share much in common either since they tend not to live in the same neighbourhoods. Again, I don't get what the obsession is with Haitians living with people from the anglophone Caribbean being significant for anything. Haitians actually from Haiti HARDLY interact with people from the Anglophone Caribbean even when they live next door. They rarely intermarry in New York, don't attend the same restaruants, the same churches, they don't listen to the same music...they generally keep to themselves regardless of where they live.
Furthermore, the fact that Haitains were treated like dirt in Cuba and DR is irrelevant...Haitians are treated like dirt damn near EVERYWHERE.
And nobody is saying Haitaians are Hispanic. Haitians are Latin American because Latin American simply means you speak a Romance Language and live in the Western Hemisphere.
Of course latinoamericano is a term, and it is used in Latin America, especially in intellectual circles. Latinoamerica too.
No one goes around calling themselves Latino or Latinoamericano, but it will be used in reference to collective things- literature, economics, culture, etc....
Anyone who says otherwise either a) doesn't speak Spanish B) speaks very little Spanish (or Portuguese, because Brazilians use it too).
I've noticed an increasing trend to refer to the communities in the US to 'la comunidad latina' on news broadcasts in Spain and in Latin American countries.
Following your logic, Colombians and Dominicans don't share much in common either since they tend not to live in the same neighbourhoods. Again, I don't get what the obsession is with Haitians living with people from the anglophone Caribbean being significant for anything. Haitians actually from Haiti HARDLY interact with people from the Anglophone Caribbean even when they live next door. They rarely intermarry in New York, don't attend the same restaruants, the same churches, they don't listen to the same music...they generally keep to themselves regardless of where they live.
Furthermore, the fact that Haitains were treated like dirt in Cuba and DR is irrelevant...Haitians are treated like dirt damn near EVERYWHERE.
And nobody is saying Haitaians are Hispanic. Haitians are Latin American because Latin American simply means you speak a Romance Language and live in the Western Hemisphere.
Well some might argue that Latinos from the Caribbean don't have that much in common with others from South and Central America and Mexico. Further evidence that language alone doesn't determine culture. I have heard several Puerto Ricans living in NY claim that they feel more bonded to Jamaicans than they feel to Mexicans.
Haitians in Brooklyn, do have high levels of social association with other Caribbean people. Maybe not at the immigrant generation, but definitely among their children. I know loads of Jamaican Haitian marriages. Haitians do listen to the same music as their Caribbean neighbors. Reggae is quite embedded among young Haitians. There isn't the degree of linguistic isolation in terms of musical tastes among various Caribbean people as there used to be. Some Haitians mightn't like dancehall but then many Jamaicans don't either!
Haitians are treated like dirt every where, but that isn't the point. Your point is that Haitians are Latin Americans, and have strong ties to Cuba and the DR. Why then were Jamaican migrants to Cuba, and Kittitian migrants to the DR treated better than are Haitians? No one will suggest that Jamaicans or people from the Leeward Islands are in any way connected to the Spanish Caribbean.
FACT. Haiti is Haiti. Its cultural connections are to the French Creole islands. To suggest that it is culturally integrated into Latin America is NONSENSE!
Within the Caribbean there is the Spanish creole, French creole and English creole cultural spheres. All distinct, with varying degrees of overlap. They all represent a synthesis of European colonial power(s), with African and other non European influences.
We must cease to define ourselves as if we are a bunch of Caribbean based Europeans. Speaking a specific European language (or more likely some Caribbean form of that language) represents only PART of what we are. To place Haitians in the same cultural space as Chileans, by virtue of speaking a Romance language, and ignoring other factors created by demography, history, etc., leads to very erroneous conclusions. Indeed it is ridiculous!
I've noticed an increasing trend to refer to the communities in the US to 'la comunidad latina' on news broadcasts in Spain and in Latin American countries.
Haitians and Anglo-Caribbeans are two isolated classifications that don't have anything to do with Latin America. The fact that politicians want to invent new stuff, their problem.
No one calls themselves Anglo-Caribbean. The English-speaking Caribbean has no desire to br described as Latinos, unless a person actually is by heritage.
Well some might argue that Latinos from the Caribbean don't have that much in common with others from South and Central America and Mexico. Further evidence that language alone doesn't determine culture. I have heard several Puerto Ricans living in NY claim that they feel more bonded to Jamaicans than they feel to Mexicans.
Haitians in Brooklyn, do have high levels of social association with other Caribbean people. Maybe not at the immigrant generation, but definitely among their children. I know loads of Jamaican Haitian marriages. Haitians do listen to the same music as their Caribbean neighbors. Reggae is quite embedded among young Haitians. There isn't the degree of linguistic isolation in terms of musical tastes among various Caribbean people as there used to be. Some Haitians mightn't like dancehall but then many Jamaicans don't either!
Haitians are treated like dirt every where, but that isn't the point. Your point is that Haitians are Latin Americans, and have strong ties to Cuba and the DR. Why then were Jamaican migrants to Cuba, and Kittitian migrants to the DR treated better than are Haitians? No one will suggest that Jamaicans or people from the Leeward Islands are in any way connected to the Spanish Caribbean.
FACT. Haiti is Haiti. Its cultural connections are to the French Creole islands. To suggest that it is culturally integrated into Latin America is NONSENSE!
Within the Caribbean there is the Spanish creole, French creole and English creole cultural spheres. All distinct, with varying degrees of overlap. They all represent a synthesis of European colonial power(s), with African and other non European influences.
We must cease to define ourselves as if we are a bunch of Caribbean based Europeans. Speaking a specific European language (or more likely some Caribbean form of that language) represents only PART of what we are. To place Haitians in the same cultural space as Chileans, by virtue of speaking a Romance language, and ignoring other factors created by demography, history, etc., leads to very erroneous conclusions. Indeed it is ridiculous!
In Chicago, because there aren't many Jamaicans (or West Indians for that matter), Puerto Ricans tend to feel more closely related to American Blacks than to Mexicans, even though the latter shares a common language, and the former's ethnic heritage is in the South, not in the Caribbean.
In fact, Chi Ricans will often speak in a half Puerto Rican, half Deep South accent because of that. They'll have glide deletion strongly, and other Southernisms like non-rhoticity and elision. Mexicans on the other hand only feel tied to other Mexicans. They'll live in any neighborhood. They can be seen in every part of town, unlike Puerto Ricans who tend to be concentrated on the Black West Side, and these Blacks have ties to the Deep South, not the West Indies. So the Puerto Rican Chicago culture will reflect that a bit.
Now, it is interesting to note that in Chicago, Haitians are more likely to live amongst Mexicans. Then, you'll at times hear Haitians sounding quasi-Mexican. This is especially the case in the Mexican dominated Southeast side around 79th-138th east of the Chicago Skyway.
Well some might argue that Latinos from the Caribbean don't have that much in common with others from South and Central America and Mexico. Further evidence that language alone doesn't determine culture. I have heard several Puerto Ricans living in NY claim that they feel more bonded to Jamaicans than they feel to Mexicans.
Haitians in Brooklyn, do have high levels of social association with other Caribbean people. Maybe not at the immigrant generation, but definitely among their children. I know loads of Jamaican Haitian marriages. Haitians do listen to the same music as their Caribbean neighbors. Reggae is quite embedded among young Haitians. There isn't the degree of linguistic isolation in terms of musical tastes among various Caribbean people as there used to be. Some Haitians mightn't like dancehall but then many Jamaicans don't either!
Haitians are treated like dirt every where, but that isn't the point. Your point is that Haitians are Latin Americans, and have strong ties to Cuba and the DR. Why then were Jamaican migrants to Cuba, and Kittitian migrants to the DR treated better than are Haitians? No one will suggest that Jamaicans or people from the Leeward Islands are in any way connected to the Spanish Caribbean.
FACT. Haiti is Haiti. Its cultural connections are to the French Creole islands. To suggest that it is culturally integrated into Latin America is NONSENSE!
Within the Caribbean there is the Spanish creole, French creole and English creole cultural spheres. All distinct, with varying degrees of overlap. They all represent a synthesis of European colonial power(s), with African and other non European influences.
We must cease to define ourselves as if we are a bunch of Caribbean based Europeans. Speaking a specific European language (or more likely some Caribbean form of that language) represents only PART of what we are. To place Haitians in the same cultural space as Chileans, by virtue of speaking a Romance language, and ignoring other factors created by demography, history, etc., leads to very erroneous conclusions. Indeed it is ridiculous!
You're reading WAY to far into the term Latin American. Chill out dude.
Latin American literally means someone from the Americas who speaks a Romance language. It is not a commentary on how European, or how African or how Indigenous a country is, nor is it really a cultural label either. I never said Haiti was "culturally integrated" into Latin America because such a thing doesn't even exist. Of course Haiti isn't in the same cultural space as Chile...neither are the DR and PR really. Latin American is literally a linguistic label. Period. You're the one putting a cultural spin on it.
Furthermore, your insistence on using people of Haitian descent born and raised outside of Haiti, some of whom having never been to Haiti and don't even speak Creole as a yardstick for how Haitian people relate to people in the English-speaking Caribbean is absolutely absurd. Of course second-generation Haitians feel more familiar with Jamaicans, they grew up with them. Doesn't make them any more similar than Italians and Irish are. I'll say it again: Haitians in Haiti and Haitians from Haiti are generally unaware of and do not care for most of the English-speaking Caribbean. Most Haitians from Haiti don't frequent Jamaican or Trini restaurants, don't eat their food, don't listen to their music and don't really care about what goes on in those countries. Your assertion that reggae is embedded in Haitian youth culture is a lie, people with dreadlocks in Haiti are looked at as "vakabon" and police regulary assault and beat people with locks.
Haiti's reggae scene is miniscule; Guadeloupe and Martinique make more reggae than Haiti and they're 1/20th the size. When last any major reggae, dancehall or soca artist did a show in Haiti? You have NO idea what you're talking about, and you're using a community that is VASTLY different from it's antecedents as an example of what they're actually like at home. Nobody uses Nuyoricans as an example of Puerto Rican culture, nobody uses Italian-Americans as an example of Italian culture, so I don't know why you're insiting on using Haitian-Americans as an example of what Haitians are like.
Finally, how Haitians are treated in the DR and Cuba isn't relevant when you consider Haitians are the worst-treated immigrants in Guadeloupe as well, despite being the most objectively similar culturally. Treatment of Haitians has less to do with culture and more to do with poverty and ignorance than anything else. People from the British West Indies who came to Cuba and the Dominican Republic were often more literate and had better skills than the Dominicans and Cubans themselves, hence better treatment.
I don't know why you insist on bringing up social phenomena (social phenomena that you are clearly unfamiliar with and don't know how to properly interpret, or just completely made up out of thin air) as evidence against a linguistic label.
Haitians and Anglo-Caribbeans are two isolated classifications that don't have anything to do with Latin America. The fact that politicians want to invent new stuff, their problem.
Exactly! This is why Haitians moving to the USA do not live in Latino neighborhoods. If for no other reason, at least they share the black immigrant experience with blacks from the Anglo Caribbean, as well as West African immigrants (Nigerians especially) who are also to be found in these neighborhoods.
No one calls themselves Anglo-Caribbean. The English-speaking Caribbean has no desire to br described as Latinos, unless a person actually is by heritage.
We tend to use the term "Caribbean" when we aren't including those from outside of the Anglophone Caribbean, including Haitians, when we want to be PC, but NEVER Dominicans or Puerto Ricans.
It is therefore appropriate to use the term Anglo phone (or English speaking) Caribbean, as we are but a mere 15% of the Caribbean population (using a definition which includes the islands, the Bahamas, and the Guyanas, but excluding places like Venezuela). We have this bad habit of excluding the remaining 85%.
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