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I've never understood the whole European element of the Argentine as a whole. Most of the LATM countries have a large European population in their major cities. Argentina may have more but their cities, slums and rural parts are still very much largely mestizo. The trajectory is still the same with indigenous and mestizos at the bottom of the ladder and the castizos and more European of the country's population at the top. Neighboring Chile has similar demographics with only a much larger and much more visible castizo population. Argentina has more than it's surrounding neighbors because it's just a bigger country with a higher population.
Everything about the Argentine mystique surrounding it's history and culture seems more romanticized than what you see on the ground. You see the same mestizos in the barrios listening to similar sounding cumbias as other South American nations. I see the same face of South America at the soccer games in the barras bravas. I also see the same castizos and Europeans in the cities that you'd see in a lot of other capitols such as Santiago, Mexico City and Caracas. The numbers might just be slightly skewed in favor of Argentina.
This isn't a troll post, Argies! I am not a phony either. You guys ever hear of Dustin Luke? Well I am like that guy except my fascination and appreciation is for the Chilean people and culture. Except my Spanish is no where near as good as his.
My points was not to bring Argentina down but to show that Argentina is NOT that much different from it's neighbors. It's not that much more unique than what other LATM countries have or have had in their history and culture. Sure more Europeans went to Argentina and Uruguay but the overall makeup of the country is still similar to other countries.
Good points. I too was under the impression that Argentina was essentially a European country in South America after hearing countless times about the Italy-Argentine connection. While the country has definitely more of an European feel to it than Mexico or Bolivia for instance, the reality I encounter there was much more indigenous than what is being advertised.
Good points. I too was under the impression that Argentina was essentially a European country in South America after hearing countless times about the Italy-Argentine connection. While the country has definitely more of an European feel to it than Mexico or Bolivia for instance, the reality I encounter there was much more indigenous than what is being advertised.
You should also remember that the indigenous presence in Argentina is compounded by mass migration from Peru, Bolivia and Paraguay over the past decades.
It's like the UK and Jamaica. The UK is a world leader in Jamaican influenced music; dubstep, bashment, jungle, bassline, drum n' bass, garage, 2 tone, etc.
Most current British slang is also Jamaican inspired, this doesn't mean that the core culture is any less Celtic or Anglo Saxon.
The mistake you made is misinterpreting the message. Argentina is the most predominantly (but not exclusively) European derived culture in LatAm. Doesn't mean that there's not a Native American presence.
I'm sorry but Latino culture is derived from southern Europe so Italians are as much Latin as Latin Americans are if not more-so.
In our globalized world we can find people much more in common with us from any background as there are different variables as you say. Career, economic, musical taste, lifestyle, fashion etc.
A metal head in Bogota, Colombia may have more in common with a metal head in Sao Paulo, Brazil than a reggaeton follower in the apartment across the hall. This doesn't take away from the fact that background and ethnicity isn't an important variable.
Plenty. The native american diet was corn based, this is still the case in both Mexico and Colombia whereas in Argentina its more wheat based. Things like tamales, tortillas, chicha and arepas, also the wrapping of food in leaves is common throughout the Andean and Mesoamerican areas.
There's the music. In Colombia you grow up learning how to dance, going to four generational parties and reunions all the time and you must know how to dance. This music is immensely west African influenced and Cumbia also has a native american component.
The mochilas, the ruanas, the fact that you just know that this ancestral identity exists is a contributing factor to your culture, outlook and self identity.
Latino culture is derived from Southern European culture yes I agree with that. My point is that adding Italians to the mix isn't going to drastically change anything in LATM. Doing business in Mexico wouldn't be world's apart that different from doing business in Argentina minding the specific laws. Business culture though in Japan is different from the USA or in China no matter how globalized the world has become.
So having corn based food rather than wheat separates the LATM nations and makes one more "European" over the other? They could all eat and drink and listen to different music. The staple meals mean nothing when it comes to the overriding culture and language that unites LATM. The point is that you can be mixed, mulatto, white European from Italy, Spain or Germany or be of west African decent, it doesn't matter. The culture and language that governs these countries from local to federal, from small to large business, from sun up to sun down is Latin derived culture mostly from Spain.
Having Dominican Republic be mostly black/mixed with West African influence, or Mexico having largely Mestizo influence or Argentina having mostly white European influence doesn't make Argentina any less Latino and different overall. Are you going to say that Dominicans being largely Afro Latino are not Latino and thus more African?
This silliness comes from the notion that only Latinos that are darker and have a more spicy culture are more Latino and less European influenced. No one in Europe is going to see an Argentine who only speaks Spanish as being more European over being Latino because he has an Italian surname, just like no one in Europe is going to see a German American with German grandparents as more European and less American.
Javier Zanneti is not more European for being lighter skinned and having more recent Italian heritage anymore than a Cuban of recent Spanish immigration, raised his whole life in Cuba as being more European.
Latinos come white, mixed, black, even Asian. No one is more African, Asian or European than the other. It's just part of the great mix. It's like the United States. In fact, it is like the entire history of the Americas and what makes the Americas America.
Argentina is the most predominantly (but not exclusively) European derived culture in LatAm. Doesn't mean that there's not a Native American presence.
Ok, I can agree that it has the most European descended people in LATM but that doesn't make it a European country in South America that is exempt from calling itself Latino. I think this is the part where we are getting confused. Even then though I think that the demographics are skewed when it comes to this too. You're making it out as if it's only natives and Whites. Natives make up a really small portion of Argentina. I think that the mestizo and castizo numbers are greatly underestimated in the population in favor of representing Argentina as a predominately white European nation.
So having corn based food rather than wheat separates the LATM nations and makes one more "European" over the other? They could all eat and drink and listen to different music. The staple meals mean nothing when it comes to the overriding culture and language that unites LATM.
Oh please, now food culture means nothing? Sorry but although language will be higher up it all adds up. There are many variables and yes LatAm is a region for a reason and there are more things that unite the countries than separate them, which is precisely why you begin to consider other variables to denote differences/similarities in identity between the countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99
Having Dominican Republic be mostly black/mixed with West African influence, or Mexico having largely Mestizo influence or Argentina having mostly white European influence doesn't make Argentina any less Latino and different overall. Are you going to say that Dominicans being largely Afro Latino are not Latino and thus more African?
This silliness comes from the notion that only Latinos that are darker and have a more spicy culture are more Latino and less European influenced. No one in Europe is going to see an Argentine who only speaks Spanish as being more European over being Latino because he has an Italian surname, just like no one in Europe is going to see a German American with German grandparents as more European and less American.
1. You place too much emphasis on what the Europeans think. Or the external stereotypes from outside the region which are plenty skewed.
2. No-one is saying Argentina or Dominican Republic are not Latino or Latino-Americanos. Where are you getting this from? In the end a culture is created from the fusion of their peoples' backgrounds and each country has different proportionality of backgrounds hence the differences.
3. The Dominican Republic unfortunately oppressed its African heritage more than most. Many Colombians on the other hand really feel Africa, even the whiter and mestizo populations acknowledge Africa and many have a soft spot for its influence on their culture.
La Fantastica (Viva el Africa)
Carlos Vives
La Boquilla (Mi Africa)
Bomba Estereo
Hija de Zion (Africa hecha en Mujer)
Voodoo Souljahs
Storm Front troll, they are more simple than nazis.
Jesus! You people are insane. Now I'm being accused of being a stormfront troll? I was trying to say that LATAM nations share more similarities than differences. I thought I'd be accused of being a commie. I didn't think it would he seen as racist.
Bowing out of this one guys! G'day!
Last edited by radiolibre99; 07-25-2016 at 07:22 AM..
even Tango has African roots. Cultural practices in Latin America derived into something new, our customs and traditions aren't "European", it's something of our own, despite of having some European roots.
Our Spanish is full of "Americanismos" (words that derive from the languages of the native ethnicities of the Americas) and words from African or even Asian origin, our gastronomy is full of Native ingredients and preparations (even tho' most people don't see it), and so on.
All countries in Latin America are very different, with different racial and cultural makeup, different slangs, different cuisines, different music, etc. You cant paint them all with the same brush
Mexico and Peru are exceptions because of their strong indigenous heritage! (aztecs, Mayans, incans)
What people don't see to understand is that North America with the exception of Quebec were colonized by the British, while the rest of the Americas with the exception of certain places and Suriname which was Dutch territory were all colonized by Latin European nations (France, Portugal, Spain)
The Anglos and Dutch colonized like Germanic tribes used to colonize and occupy territories in Europe. (They create settlements, then they create an economic outpost and often either annihilate the indigenous of the land, or live NEXT TO THEM without mixing with them.)
The Spaniards, French and portuguese on the other hand colonized like Rome used to colonize. (They occupy the lands, mix with everyone and force the Roman Imperial rules and values onto the occupees!)
I wouldn't include the French in that. They were more like the British/Dutch.
In fact, they were placing an apartheid state in what is now Haiti and that is the main reason why the Haitian Revolution took place. The mixed race population (which was smaller than the white population, if the French tended to mix then the mixed race would had been much larger than the white and with time the mixed race would had become a majority) was being excluded from all sorts of things, special privileges were reserved for the white Frenchmen. They were not happy and revolted. When the mixed race saw that the white French were not budging despite the revolt, the mixed race rousted the enslaved black population and the rest is a tragic history that ended with the white French men, women, and children being massacred in an ethnic cleansing.
Compare that to what happened in what is now Dominican Republic, where the white Spaniards rather than rejecting the mixed race decided to embrace them. Eventually the mixed race became the majority in Dominican Republic and racial tensions have always been at a minimum compared to other parts of the non-Spanish Caribbean, especially when compared to Haiti.
Haiti actually had racially based war (starting with its war for the independence and later the multiple mulatto vs black fighting and massacres), Dominican Republic has never had any of that. In Haiti political parties have traditionally been racially based (the political parties supported by the mulattoes almost never tended to be the ones supported by the blacks), while in Dominican Republic political parties have never been racially based. In Haiti there is mass aversion to having a white person become president and when mulattoes rise to power, they often have to make a public display in favor of the blacks in order to keep the peace. In Dominican Republic there have been white, mixed, and black presidents and in not a single government regime has the color or features of the president caused uneasiness in the general population, nor have any of the presidents felt the need to make public display in favor of any race or color to keep the peace. Haiti's flag is based on the French flag with the white band ripped out by Dessalines to represent the exclusion of the whites from Haitian society. The Dominican flag is based on the Haitian flag and includes a white cross in the middle that represents the union of the races into one nation.
These things are not coincidental. One side started with the French and the other with the Spanish, and that has an effect to this very day. Its a very different effect because the French were not like the Spaniards.
Last edited by AntonioR; 07-26-2016 at 09:54 AM..
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