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Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,522 posts, read 2,245,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7855
It takes a lot of humility and honesty to admit that, but you´re generally correct. We all hope that this will change in the future, but in the meantime, I think there is somewhat of a valid explanation...in the bad old days this was easily the most isolated region of the country. That emotional trauma has stoked mistrust of outsiders, and then abruptly, foreign tourists and Venezuelan migrants arrive in droves and some people don´t know what to think, and more uncomfortable, how to act!
I wouldn´t exactly call the city where I live (Pereira) cosmopolitan, but we have a small, integrated community of chocoanos and most Venezuelans seem pretty grateful for coming here and usually finding work. The UTP draws students from all over the country, especially indigenous kids from places like Cauca and Nariño.
30 minutes north in Marsella there´s really not much contact with outsiders, and this scandal broke a while back:
Do this gentleman´s comments reflect the mentality of the whole town? No. I just take it as a lack of exposure maybe causing a fear of outsiders. That´s usually how societies work.
@aab7855, the troubling issue i see with the conversations being held with some of the participants in this dialogue is that they tend to take something they heard on a particular news network or anectdotal Youtube video and take that as gospel. The acceptance of a few peoples opinions as the feeling of the whole population when it cannot be substantiated seems like reaching to support particular narratives.
The dialogue is great, but we must start at a place of facts then move outward to anecdotal and opinions...
Haiti was doing fine until Jean Francois Duvalier rose to power. After his death his son took over and once he left in the 1980´s, Haiti has been on a downward spiral like never before. Before then Haiti was actually developing and it was one of the more popular vacation spots in the Caribbean. What happened in colonial times didn´t seem to prevent the country from marching forward. Duvalier is the real reason. He left Haiti in worse shape than he found it.
It is possible to support the D.R.’s regulation of illegal immigration without spewing blatant inaccuracies regarding Haiti’s history. Haiti was bankrupt in 1947, after paying France reparations for its own freedom for approximately 122 years. No other nation has been dealt such a blow. Duvalier did not come into power until 1957. Everyone knows that major damage he did to Haiti but Haiti was in dire straits before him due to France’s extortion.
A number of nations have has horrible leaders and recovered. The extortion by France is what made Haiti’s development far more challenging.
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,522 posts, read 2,245,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReineDeCoeur
It is possible to support the D.R.’s regulation of illegal immigration without spewing blatant inaccuracies regarding Haiti’s history. Haiti was bankrupt in 1947, after paying France reparations for its own freedom for approximately 122 years. No other nation has been dealt such a blow. Duvalier did not come into power until 1957. Everyone knows that major damage he did to Haiti but Haiti was in dire straits before him due to France’s extortion.
A number of nations have has horrible leaders and recovered. The extortion by France is what made Haiti’s development far more challenging.
Exactly....the fact he tried to debate me on that was crazy......
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
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You got a serious issue with Black Americans so we can deconstruct that......and once again, you are completely making statements rooted in no factual mstanding whatsoever. How do you know what
%g of the US population legal and illegal Dominicans are if the State Department doesnt??? Your narrative is bogus bro....just stating that you dont want Haitians is the narrative you should stick with. Unless you are ready to prove what you state as fact that all those groups you listed are pushing a movement to force DR into accepting Haitians. You keep talking about noise from social media...where? Right wing fringes?? Man you dont know what you are talking about. Stop it.....
So how do you figure Black Americans are brainwashing Dominicans?? Provide evidence that someone is brainwashing them into practicing the one drop rule......because Blacks didnt create or perpetuate that so called rule bro...whites did. Man exactly where do you hear this foolishness?
And my family is comprised of what are labeled as Mulattos...Im from New Orleans...and we are not Afro Latino so what are you talking about? Are you somehow upset that there is an Afro latixx movement and they are claiming their blackness as well as their latin culture? No one needs to be brainwashed to do that....you have some unpacking to do. Try to answer the questions instead of repeating the same nonsense though.....
Last edited by Ibginnie; 12-03-2018 at 09:53 AM..
Reason: deleted troll quote
As I stated, you get your info from right wing media sources. There is no outcry in any city that the overwhelming majority of social services is being taken advantage of by immigrants. There is what used to be the fringe, now overt xenophobic that have been emboldened by the political majority. You say many people....whats the %'g? Because you also state that the US is a minority Liberal country. If it were as simple as you make it seem, and as of today the White House, House of Representatives and Congress are all Republican, then why havent laws been passed to overtly ban immigrants and stop all social services they consume? Why has that wall NOT been funded?
And where are the hundreds of millions of people who will feel good about themselves with the sacrifice of the DR to Haitian immigrants? What sanctions have been placed either economically or geo-politically on the DR for not taking in Haitians? The narrative you have seems more like shaming......
And do you think Haiti was actually doing good then? With an unsubstantiated 190 billion franc debt? For revolting against colonizers? That debt is part of the reason the country could not get on its feet...as well as the post conflict debt that France so "kindly" forgave........
So lets talk about Brazils foreign population....that 3% is unsubstantiated because there is no way to know what the real number is. The immigrants dont have any of the legal docs required for the most part. And the country is no UK, US, France, Germany, etc...meaning it may be an emerging market but by far the population is poor and the social services lacking. It compares really well with the DR....land size does not matter when it comes to the geo political rhetoric. At the end of the day, you have 2 bvasically 3rd world countries with weak currencies, political instability, social and socio-economic issues, and an influx of immigrants (leal and illegal) coming to their borders for better ops. The Brazilian government is not fully servicing its own residents as well as it could be but its not due to immigration..its due to political corruption. Do you not concede that that has plagued the DR as well???
I understand as a world resident that the residents of any country want the natives to be taken care of or at least thought of first by their government. The issues at home always take precedent. But to sat others are wanting your demise via immigration is ridiculous. But may I ask if other countries should close its borers to Dominicans? It may help you stop the brain drain and keep your most valuable resource...human capital, within your own borders....what say you???
The problem in Brazil is that immigrants from Venezuela get into Brazil trough nothern borders in Roraima state and from Haiti get into trough the border in Acre state and specially the Venezuelan want stay there close home.
Both states are the smallers in Brazil both with small capital cities having only 350.000 inhabitants, of course in this part of Brazil they can’t support more than 50.000 people, but when they are transfered for souther states they are assimilate in with no problem. Low skilled workers are always necessary in many big cities like São Paulo, Belo Horizonte, Brasilia, Porto Alegre, Curitiba, Recife (Rio de Janeiro is in crisis) many are being taken to meat processing factures in inner Brazil that lacking workers. The biggest foreign community in Brazil are the Bolivian any way.
About the subject I agree, RD needs control the influx of Haitian they can’t suupport a bankrup state of 8 millions people… That’s a problem I think first of all FRANCE and international comunity should handle… FRANCE would give back the money stollen from Haiti in its independence, investing there.
I can understand why even darker skinned Dominican say they are mixed because they have the Haitians (pure black Africans) as refference, how no other place in Latin America have.
In places like center-south Brazil or USA where there are millions of pure whites from recent European immigratian, is easier spot people with any non-European facial traces. All is the refference someone has... Because that in Brazil we have the ''pardo'' classification and in USA the one drop rule and in RD or Cape Verde they indentify themselves as mullato countries.
Last edited by EVANGELISTTI; 11-06-2018 at 07:11 AM..
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,522 posts, read 2,245,192 times
Reputation: 1041
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVANGELISTTI
The problem in Brazil is that immigrants from Venezuela get into Brazil trough nothern borders in Roraima state and from Haiti get into trough the border in Acre state and specially the Venezuelan want stay there close home.
Both states are the smallers in Brazil both with small capital cities having only 350.000 inhabitants, of course in this part of Brazil they can’t support more than 50.000 people, but when they are transfered for souther states they are assimilate in with no problem. Low skilled workers are always necessary in many big cities like São Paulo, Belo Horizonte, Brasilia, Porto Alegre, Curitiba, Recife (Rio de Janeiro is in crisis) many are being taken to meat processing factures in inner Brazil that lacking workers. The biggest foreign community in Brazil are the Bolivian any way.
About the subject I agree, RD needs control the influx of Haitian they can’t suupport a bankrup state of 8 millions people… That’s a problem I think first of all FRANCE and international comunity should handle… FRANCE would give back the money stollen from Haiti in its independence, investing there.
I can understand why even darker skinned Dominican say they are mixed because they have the Haitians (pure black Africans) as refference, how no other place in Latin America have.
In places like center-south Brazil or USA where there are millions of pure whites from recent European immigratian, is easier spot people with any non-European facial traces. All is the refference someone has... Because that in Brazil we have the ''pardo'' classification and in USA the one drop rule and in RD or Cape Verde they indentify themselves as mullato countries.
The problem is Brazil has to do with political corruption thus leading to social and socioeconomic issues wouldnt you agree? Immigration is somewhat of a derivative. The lack social services, weakness of currency and geo-political issues are all mutually exclusive of immigration.
And to be clear......and its sad that we have to perform this exercise.....all Haitians are not pure Africans, just as black Americans for the most part are not all pure africans. Brazil population is about 50% mixed, and pardo can be broken down into subgroups like cafuso, mulatto, caboclo, etc......there are black people all over latin america due to the influx of the slave trade, so what exactly is your point? And please tell me where someone pics one drop in America? Have you done an application before and seen the options? If someone is of mixed race they dont have to choose white or black.....didnt you know that?
But please explain why you would say that you understand why even dark skinned Dominicans would claim to be mixed?? Unpack that for me please......
The problem is Brazil has to do with political corruption thus leading to social and socioeconomic issues wouldnt you agree? Immigration is somewhat of a derivative. The lack social services, weakness of currency and geo-political issues are all mutually exclusive of immigration.
Sure man! but you and the other guy were talking about the youtube vÃdeo of some Brazilians complaining about these immigrants, but it just happen in northern border cities overwhelmed of immigrants, is what I mean. Do you agree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLIMMACKEY
And to be clear......and its sad that we have to perform this exercise.....all Haitians are not pure Africans, just as black Americans for the most part are not all pure africans. Brazil population is about 50% mixed, and pardo can be broken down into subgroups like cafuso, mulatto, caboclo, etc......there are black people all over latin america due to the influx of the slave trade, so what exactly is your point? And please tell me where someone pics one drop in America? Have you done an application before and seen the options? If someone is of mixed race they dont have to choose white or black.....didnt you know that?
But please explain why you would say that you understand why even dark skinned Dominicans would claim to be mixed?? Unpack that for me please......
You can't compare black Haitians with black US or Black Latin American... In Haiti there are few mulatos and in general they are into the tiny middle class and elite, 90% Haitians are pure blacks or 95% black.
In Latin America we have still a mindset from the past that nowadays don't make sense, but is something still alive... be mestizo for many mean be part of the country, be black (slave) or be criollo (colonial descent), or be White immigrant means be foreigner or not be fully accepted for the mass population as countryman.
In DR be mulato they feel like be dominican and be black means be haitian...
Mindset from the past that doesn't fully over.
That is the point that many black US american don't understand is not really only the case of ''guilt of the black ancestry''.
Of course for a White latin american listen you don't look exactly latin american (mestizo) you look european (from the richest and advanced continent) don't sound really offensive... But be black sounds like be african, be a ****. slave, or be amerindian mean not be accepted as part of the country!!
When in independent war, countries like Mexico, Colombia, Peru... all with mostly mixed amerindian-spanish population and supported their ethnic nacionalism saying everbody is mestizo!! In dominican republic replaced for everbody is mulatto!! In Brazil everbody is cabloco (tri-racial)!!
Mean no more there are criollos, amerindians, blacks... everybody are from both or from the 3 so no more colonial caste fights!!
Of course it was usefull for unit the countries BUT MUCH BETTER for the elites that didn't lose their status quo and money and properties, just saying they were mestizos too!! having the foot in the kitchen!!
Location: Formerly NYC by week; ATL by weekend...now Rio bi annually and ATL bi annually
1,522 posts, read 2,245,192 times
Reputation: 1041
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVANGELISTTI
Sure man! but you and the other guy were talking about the youtube vÃdeo of some Brazilians complaining about these immigrants, but it just happen in northern border cities overwhelmed of immigrants, is what I mean. Do you agree?
Sure I do. But HE was trying to use the video as how everyone thought and I was arguing against it.
You can't compare black Haitians with black US or Black Latin American... In Haiti there are few mulatos and in general they are into the tiny middle class and elite, 90% Haitians are pure blacks or 95% black.
Once again, none of the Diaspora blacks, from Latin America, US, Caribbean, etc are anywhere near 90-100% black. We all have Euro or Indian somewhere in the bloodline...that is the mark of slavery and colonialism. Saying Haitians are as balck as Nigerians is like saying Black Americans are as black as Nigerians. But the Brazilians in Bahia may be closer to Nigerians than anyone...dont you agree???
In Latin America we have still a mindset from the past that nowadays don't make sense, but is something still alive... be mestizo for many mean be part of the country, be black (slave) or be criollo (colonial descent), or be White immigrant means be foreigner or not be fully accepted for the mass population as countryman.
In DR be mulato they feel like be dominican and be black means be haitian...
Mindset from the past that doesn't fully over.
That is the point that many black US american don't understand is not really only the case of ''guilt of the black ancestry''. Diaspora blacks do understand that backward thinking. As well as those mixed diaspora people living in Latin America...hence the AfrXXX movements...ASfro Columbian, Afro Peruvian, Afro Brazilians, etc....
Of course for a White latin american listen you don't look exactly latin american (mestizo) you look european (from the richest and advanced continent) don't sound really offensive... But be black sounds like be african, be a ****. slave, or be amerindian mean not be accepted as part of the country!!
When in independent war, countries like Mexico, Colombia, Peru... all with mostly mixed amerindian-spanish population and supported their ethnic nacionalism saying everbody is mestizo!! In dominican republic replaced for everbody is mulatto!! In Brazil everbody is cabloco (tri-racial)!!
Mean no more there are criollos, amerindians, blacks... everybody are from both or from the 3 so no more colonial caste fights!!
Of course it was usefull for unit the countries BUT MUCH BETTER for the elites that didn't lose their status quo and money and properties, just saying they were mestizos too!! having the foot in the kitchen!!
"Of course it was usefull for unit the countries BUT MUCH BETTER for the elites that didn't lose their status quo and money and properties, just saying they were mestizos too!! having the foot in the kitchen!![/quote]" You are absolutely correct!!
I can only answer the highlighted. Have you ever been to NYC? MIami? Dominicans are uptown Manhattan for the most part...Harlem...Washington Heights is probably the most dense population neighborhood in Harlem. They know they have black in them and for the most part embrace it. They use the "N&**a" word just as much for slang as black americans. So yeah, they use it and its common.
Dominicans claim Washington Heights as Harlem,I've I thought the Heights was just that?
And many Latinos in America including Mexican say the word n!kk@ , its just a simple trend nothing to do with identity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLIMMACKEY
We can acknowledge when we agree and agree to disagree. But facts are facts.
And if one does not embrace who they are they are willfully ignorant. NBo one is stating that a lightskin Dominican grow out a bush and get mad afro-centric with it. But to deny that it is part of your dna, and a large part at that is a problem no matter where you are. Cape Verdians used to say they we white, because they spoke Portuguese. They could be black as tar and make that claim. Self hate is a derivative of colonialism. And I can dig that its a love hate relationship....black americans have a love hate relationship with certain aspects of "blackness".....but its how you love and hate it...not the fact that you do...comprende?
Cape Verdians have always claimed their Black/African ancestry,the mulatto population although is big is still not the majority there.
Of course it was usefull for unit the countries BUT MUCH BETTER for the elites that didn't lose their status quo and money and properties, just saying they were mestizos too!! having the foot in the kitchen!!
"Having the foot in the kitchen" lol. Is that a Brazilian saying? - I like it.
That saying goes well with the point you're putting across.
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